So I have been researching the pants off this for the better part of a year now. I thought i had been relatively informed/educated but now that I want to buy something i am feeling a little reluctant.

So I have a very tight budget and was looking at getting something like the Via Venezia with a comparable grinder. I know not the set-up that most HB members would consider adequate but I figured enough to get started. Or was considering a used machine but I will basically be making Americanos with the occasional straight shot.

I went into a local shop in the Toronto Area (Espresso Planet) to see what options I had for my 900.00 new. The person suggested the Breville 970XL with built in grinder and did a full demo including comparing Grind quality to other $200.00 type grinders. Based on many reviews I had seen on the lower end Breville units I had written them off. But after the demo and talking to her I a leaning that way. I checked some reviews last night when home and yes the hard core online community hate on these units but it seems the average joe user likes it or at least can pull a shot from it.

So my options are

Via Venezia with 200.00ish Baratza Grinder
Breville 870XL
Used Gaggia Classic with MDF Grinder (little cheaper but would leave budget for accessories)
Then this is where it gets hard and where I need some advice. At the top end of my budget I found a used La cimbali m31 Bistro 2 head unit. Way more than I need but seems to be a good deal, maybe to good a deal. Advertiser lists as hardly used. He is including a doser grinder of some sort but no details. My fear is I know nothing about these machines. he says it is working and can demonstrate when I go see it this afternoon. Being at the top of my budget if it turns out to need repairs I will be pretty much done unless I can service myself with the aid of youtube and manuals.

Any advice? Anything I am overlooking? I know the breville gets very little love from HB and CG but if I were to compare to cycling there are always that small percentage of Lycra wearing bike snobs that only the latest and greatest will do.

Thought I would add a couple of pictures of the M31 and grinder. Maybe someone can identify the grinder

The cimbali grinder looks to be a junior. Could be a Max, but probably not.
The junior is a solid grinder and the two group is probably great as well.
But you might need to check if it fits your kitchen, connections-wise. Also, a two group will draw a lot of power, although you could spring for insulation. The possibility to use the machine as a boiling-water dispenser as well might soften the counter-space blow.

Also, you might want to change your bicycle information source. Insisting going fast is dependant on gear is ridiculous. But for coffee, good gear makes everything a lot easier.

Think you meant the Breville 870XL, but man you Canucks are taking it in the pie hole in prices up there lol. $900 can get you a CC1 and Vario here, far better setup. That Breville is under 600 here, can't believe there's that large of a price spread. But regardless, don't do it, built it grinder sucks and the machine itself is nothing special, the Dual Boiler is the only Breville worth owning and much better then their lower end stuff. Personally I would say no to the MDF grinder as well, if you can find a used Classic that should save some cash (their solid simple machines), can buy a Vario or possibly refurbed one (not sure what shipping would be like to Canada for a refurb) that would give you a nice setup for the $.

The two group, I mean it depends, if you have no mechanical skills and aren't into that type of thing, pry not. I equate to cars, I have no problem tearing into my truck, or race car or boat etc, others wouldn't even know how to change their oil nor even try attempting to . Two groups draw a lot of power so you'd have to have the wiring setup for it (240v) and thats a machine you'd really want to leave on 24/7. I mean if its cheap, I would do it.... but I'm not you

I say a used Classic and a good grinder, heck maybe even jump on the Pharos hand grinder thats available again if you don't mind hand grinding, as you'll get a grinder that is equal to 1k+ grinders.

Hi Derrick, do you value the convenience of electric machines? If not, have you considered a LIDO 2/3 plus an Espresso Forge.

An alternative to the Via Venetia or Gaggia Classic is the Delonghi EC680. I like it because of electronic temperature control, 3 temp settings, fast heat up. It has a lot of cons, it's just an alternative to consider.

Remember that the larger the boiler the longer the machine is going to take to heat up. If you want to leave it on all day and make >2 shots per day, having a real commercial espresso machine is more convenient. But it may take half a circuit to power it and quite a bit of energy to leave it on.

-Mike

EspressoRide wrote:So I have been researching the pants off this for the better part of a year now. I thought i had been relatively informed/educated but now that I want to buy something i am feeling a little reluctant.

So I have a very tight budget and was looking at getting something like the Via Venezia with a comparable grinder. I know not the set-up that most HB members would consider adequate but I figured enough to get started. Or was considering a used machine but I will basically be making Americanos with the occasional straight shot.

I went into a local shop in the Toronto Area (Espresso Planet) to see what options I had for my 900.00 new. The person suggested the Breville 970XL with built in grinder and did a full demo including comparing Grind quality to other $200.00 type grinders. Based on many reviews I had seen on the lower end Breville units I had written them off. But after the demo and talking to her I a leaning that way. I checked some reviews last night when home and yes the hard core online community hate on these units but it seems the average joe user likes it or at least can pull a shot from it.

So my options are

Via Venezia with 200.00ish Baratza Grinder
Breville 870XL
Used Gaggia Classic with MDF Grinder (little cheaper but would leave budget for accessories)
Then this is where it gets hard and where I need some advice. At the top end of my budget I found a used La cimbali m31 Bistro 2 head unit. Way more than I need but seems to be a good deal, maybe to good a deal. Advertiser lists as hardly used. He is including a doser grinder of some sort but no details. My fear is I know nothing about these machines. he says it is working and can demonstrate when I go see it this afternoon. Being at the top of my budget if it turns out to need repairs I will be pretty much done unless I can service myself with the aid of youtube and manuals.

Any advice? Anything I am overlooking? I know the breville gets very little love from HB and CG but if I were to compare to cycling there are always that small percentage of Lycra wearing bike snobs that only the latest and greatest will do.

Hi Derrick,

As a fellow Canuck, I have good and bad news.

You already know that Canadian dollar is tanking faster than Luca Brasi in the Godfather, who ended up "sleeping with the fishes". The loonie is at a 10-year low against the greenback. That means equipment prices in Canada have shot up 30% or more in the last year. It's depressing. And it's expensive to buy espresso gear right now. Most equipment comes to Canada via the U.S., so prices suck right now. A GS/3 for $10,000! Yep, that's the sad reality in the great white north. Entry level car, or superb home espresso machine -- take your pick!

That's the bad news.

Ok I don't really have good news, per se. But I have some advice and suggestions.

As you know, since you've been researching for a year (I did the same thing not that long ago!), home espresso is not a cheap hobby. It doesn't have to be astronomically expensive, although it can be. But you do have to spend something to get decent results. Unfortunately, that 'something' got considerably higher over the last year.

So you can approach this in a few ways:

-Get the best (new) setup you can afford with your budget
This means compromising now, and you'll likely want to upgrade very soon and end up wishing you saved up for better equipment.

-Get the best (used) setup you can afford with your budget
This can be fruitful. But you have to know what to look for, how to inspect a machine for damage, wear and scale etc. So you need to be up to the task.

-Get a nice grinder now, and save up for a machine ***recommended
You could get a solid grinder now, then use an aeropress, french press and or moka pot. Your coffee will still be darn good, just not espresso. You could also get the EspressoForge plus a Pharos. Manual fun and high quality, to boot!

-Wait and save more to increase your budget ***recommended
The best advice anyone can say is get the best setup you can afford. But it's also worth saving for as long as you can to afford even more!

-Finance a better setup and pay it off with installments, accruing interest along the way ***recommended with caveats
idrinkcoffee, I believe offers financing. But it might be better to just use a credit card. Either way, you're spending money you don't have right now and paying interest. But sometimes this is an option for people.

Here are some of the cheapest, decent options I can find in Canada. Although, none of these machines have a PID, so temp surfing will be your friend(or foe). And the grinders are decent entry points. But, again, you'll likely face 'upgraditis' soon, once you fall down the rabbit hole.

I've also never purchased from these retailers. Idrinkcoffee is also somewhere to look, that's where I bought my equipment, but most of their good stuff is beyond your current budget and they don't carry the Lelit or Gaggia products anymore.

And like previously mentioned, a grinder/machine combo like the Breville 870 should probably be avoided. If you have a problem with either the machine or grinder, you're out of luck.

http://www.consiglioskitchenware.com/st ... 1p5413.htm
http://www.consiglioskitchenware.com/st ... 7p5203.htm
http://www.northwestkitchenware.com/products/?id=3119

http://www.consiglioskitchenware.com/st ... 1p5385.htm
http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Baratza_Vir ... virpre.htm
http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Eureka_Mign ... mig-bl.htm

I think the best thing would be to buy a grinder and use an aeropress, french press or moka pot, and wait. Or wait on everything until you can budget for the best you can buy.

Good luck!

EDIT: If you're not making milk drinks, that opens up some other, less expensive possibilities. Are you making milk drinks or no?

Thanks, the two group is going to have to be a pass. Which kills me as it was only 900 with grinder. But 220V and has to be plumbed into house water supply. So pretty much deal breaker right there.

Right now we are paying 30% exchange on the US dollar, it is killing the prices of everything up here. then add 13% tax on top of that.

Vario locally is 639.00 for the new version and 729.00 for the weight dosing version, then add 13% tax and I have a nice grinder but no machine.

I went and got the Breville 870XL. I managed to talk them down on price and was out the door for 500.00. That still leaves some money that I can add a grinder if i find that I can not make the one work that is on the unit.

Now off to find some beans to test this thing out

With your budget, you are pretty much going to get your best espresso with used equipment.

If you go used, a used commercial 64mm flat grinder like a Nuova Simonelli MDX or a Mazzer Super Jolly is about $250CA. These will usually need new burrs - about $75CA ... so $325CA. The money left will get you a nice used SBDU, maybe an HX if you get lucky ... but I will admit, a low-end used espresso machine in Toronto is probably a calcified mess.

If you want new, an OE Pharos is $500CA by the time taxes, postage, etc., are in, and you can pick up an Ascaso Basic with the ground coffee kit for $350CA.

Well few weeks in with the breville and I thought I would post an update and seek some follow up information.

I am not disappointed with the 870XL, I am managing to get a relatively decent shot from it. But as predicted am looking to upgrade. Consistency is where the Breville is falling short and i recognize that is 80% me and maybe 20% equipment. What is fueling the upgrade is the desire to have a set-up at home and another in my office. So the Breville will get relegated to a lesser role but at least provide an Americano, Long Shot or cuban coffee at home leaving the new set-up for my office where I tend to drink more.

So for my machine I am looking at spending about 1500+taxes (1700.00) and then add to that my grinder. The grinders kinda in the running right now are a new Vario, Used Compak K6 or used SJ.

IDC has the Magister Stella Pro in my price point for the machine and it seems like a well featured machine for the money. No real information online about it but the few posts here all seem to say it is a solid machine that just lacks some of the fit and finish of pricier HX machines.

EspressoRide wrote:Well few weeks in with the breville and I thought I would post an update and seek some follow up information.

I am not disappointed with the 870XL, I am managing to get a relatively decent shot from it. But as predicted am looking to upgrade. Consistency is where the Breville is falling short and i recognize that is 80% me and maybe 20% equipment. What is fueling the upgrade is the desire to have a set-up at home and another in my office. So the Breville will get relegated to a lesser role but at least provide an Americano, Long Shot or cuban coffee at home leaving the new set-up for my office where I tend to drink more.

So for my machine I am looking at spending about 1500+taxes (1700.00) and then add to that my grinder. The grinders kinda in the running right now are a new Vario, Used Compak K6 or used SJ.

IDC has the Magister Stella Pro in my price point for the machine and it seems like a well featured machine for the money. No real information online about it but the few posts here all seem to say it is a solid machine that just lacks some of the fit and finish of pricier HX machines.

Since you're upgrading soon after getting the Breville, I recommend getting the best possible setup you can afford. That would stave off yet another bout of upgraditis.

How much are you budgeting for a grinder. As we said before, that's more important than the machine. I would budget, bare minimum, enough for something like a Baratza Vario to pair with a prosumer machine. Grinders only go up in price from there.

And are you making mostly straight shots or milk drinks? And how many per session?

I have an E61 HX(Bezzera Magica), which I purchased at IDC. I've seen the Magister in person. It doesn't quite have the fit and finish, and look of the pricier E61s, but it's less expensive and, based on reports I've read by users, I haven't seen any major complaints or problems.

I would recommend getting Erics thermometer for E61 groups, if you go that route. I have one and it's very useful for developing your flush routine, and monitoring the group head for its idle temps, and for overall machine health. Since a dramatic change in group head idle temp can indicate a problem that needs investigating.

You'll also need a small budget for misc accessories. e.g. Tamper, better baskets, pitcher, brushes, knockbox, grinder and machine cleaning products etc.