Hello HB! This is my first post after lurking for a while. You've developed a great community here.
I've found the many posts from HB users telling their thoughts about their selection process and their first experience with their new machine to be extremely helpful. I thought I will add my own story:

I've been using a single boiler Francis Francis X1 for about 15 years. Bought it while living in Torino. It's got Italian 220 plug on it which I now plug into a 220v to 110v converter box after moving back to the US in 2004. It's worked well but I don't get consistently good shots. Maybe one out of 20 is very good, the rest are ok to poor. None are "great". I use pre-ground Lavazza coffee, and almost never steam milk. It's time to upgrade. I'm in the process of choosing my dream machine and grinder - an E61 double boiler. I'm skipping the HX/E61 step that I have almost taken in the past but then backed down. I'll pull the trigger in a few months since my wife has a couple of large items in our spending queue.

I'm looking at Profitec Pro 700, Quick Mill Lucca M58, Izzo Alex Duetto and Vibiemme Domobar V4.0. I eliminated the Rocket V2 R58 right away due to the wacky detachable PID display. All these machines are much more alike than they are different, so the choice comes down to a few feature preferences. I'll be plumbing it in for water (have whole house filter and RO softener to treat our California water), but not the drain - I can't get past having to drill a hole in the new countertop. I really want a shot clock so that seems to limit me to the Profitec Pro 700 and Lucca M58 and both are the same price.

What I like about the Profitec Pro 700 over Lucca M58:
- Very neat internal layout with unified metal frame front to back. Pump motor under the brew boiler doesn't bother me.
- Spring loaded hot water and steam valves
- More powerful heating elements and users reporting very good brew temperature recovery time using 15A/110v
- Tank/direct plumbing valve is a simple hand operated type - no solenoid with extra wires
- Stainless steel boilers (less scale accumulation, although I am beginning to think SS vs. Copper does not matter)
- Can remove the cup rail easily to fit under my cabinets (I have 16" clearance due to trim on uppers)
- Large 4" cup clearance
- Location of PID display on the front panel. Seems easy to look at the clock and the coffee itself during the shot.
What I don't like
- No included bottomless portafilter
- Painted frame instead of stainless
- Steam boiler switch is hidden below the front panel, near the driptray. I'd rather have it on the front panel

What I like about the Lucca M58 over Profitec Pro 700:
- Lever hot water and steam valves
- Symmetrical gauge, switch and indicator light groups on the front panel for each boiler
- Hefty portafilters with chrome trim and a bottomless instead of single
- Boiler drains
- 2 year warranty from Clive Coffee
What I don't like
- Cramped internal layout
- Some reports on this site of manufacturing issue - debris in the water path, incorrect PID settings.
- Big round PID display - just looks too big to me
- Side panels with heat vanes and a hole for pump pressure adjustment

There are a few other differences that don't influence my decision so I didn't list them. At this point, the Profitec Pro 700 is my choice. Even though they don't have shot clocks, I still plan to take a closer look at the Duetto and Vibiemme Domobar before finally deciding. The grinder will need to fit under my upper cabinets, probably with the hopper removed. I can pull it out and put the hopper on when using it. Looking at Mazzer Mini B, Ceado E37S, and Macap MXD.

Since it's unlikely I'll get a chance to see any of them in person before buying, I'd welcome any HB users to chime in about their experiences with and opinions on any of these machines and especially the experience you've had with your vendor after purchasing. Thanks!

Tom

If money is an issue, you should choose a better grinder and go with a Hx machine instead, The Mazzer Mini is not worth it's price tag, and it's not really going to give you the full advantage of a E61db machine.

Getting a 63-68mm Conical or a large 73-85mm flat is what you should be getting first, for the rest of the budget you should buy the machine. The grinder is just that much more important.

A Compak k10/E10/F10 or Macap M7D or one of the two Ceado on-demand are good choices. But so is Mahlkonig k30 And Anfirm super caimano (you don't need the one with titanium coated burrs (the expensive one))

I believe that whole latte love posted a sale on the Ceado E37s grinder recently. I can't find it but I swear it was 1099. That seems like the smart choice in single dosing, quiet operation and ease of cleaning. That said, I bought an HG-One for less.

The Duetto is also on sale at the moment. Check the marketplace forum.

malling wrote:If money is an issue, you should choose a better grinder and go with a Hx machine instead, The Mazzer Mini is not worth it's price tag, and it's not really going to give you the full advantage of a E61db machine.

Getting a 63-68mm Conical or a large 73-85mm flat is what you should be getting first, for the rest of the budget you should buy the machine. The grinder is just that much more important.

A Compak k10/E10/F10 or Macap M7D or one of the two Ceado on-demand are good choices. But so is Mahlkonig k30 And Anfirm super caimano (you don't need the one with titanium coated burrs (the expensive one))

Agreed. Invest in a 68mm conical or 85mm flat-burr grunder first then buy your double boiler machine! You will have plenty of time to upgrade the machine later on. If you wanted to do this then the Breville BES920 would be a great choice.

Hi Tom. Welcome!

The good news is any of those machines, combined with an excellent grinder and freshly roasted, quality beans, will improve your espresso dramatically -- provided you learn how to use your equipment effectively.

The bad news is there's a lot to choose from. That's not really bad news. Just means you have a big decision to make.

Grinder. As has been mentioned, it's more important than the machine. You can have the best machine in the world, great beans, and excellent barista skills, but if your grinder isn't up to the task, it will be the weakest link in the chain.

I would recommend setting an overall budget for everything you need. Also, it helps to think about specific things you're looking for in your new set-up. And if you don't know, thinking about what you want will help you figure that out.

So...

-What's your budget?
-You won't steam much. How often would you steam?
-What kind of drinks? Straight shots only, americanos, milk drinks when entertaining?
-How many drinks in one session? One, two, four, more?
-Do you want to plumb the machine in? Or have that option down the road?
-Vibratory vs rotary pump?
-15 or 20 amp?
-Are you comfortable tinkering and making minor mechanical repairs?
-Will you use the same beans most of the time, or change beans frequently? (this is relevant to grinder options)
-Space restrictions? Cabinet clearance...or will you have a coffee bar with no height issues?

These are some typical things to think about and will help you focus your search.

Thanks for the replies. I've firmly decided not to go with an HX, but I will consider these grinder suggestions. I did see the Ceado E37S sale price at $1099 a couple of days ago. It's about the same as WLL's combo price for it with a Profitec Pro 700. That grinder looks like a good fit for my needs (83mm flat burr, not too tall), but I will check the others. I have plenty of time to decide.

I've been considering all these points for a few weeks already, while lurking on this site....
- Budget is about $3.5 to 4K
- Steam - right now I take 2-3 espressi a day. Wife might take a cappuccino once or twice a day when we get it all set up and I may take them on weekends - right now she makes her own drip coffee. So with a new set up I figure 4 drinks a day and more on weekends. With the ease of steaming available without hassle of the single boiler, I'm sure I will use it more. Still, I am an espresso guy any the drinks with milk will be taken by me less often.
- I will definitely plumb it. I already have a plan for how to do it. Will post pictures on the process once I do it in a few months. I will use the machine with the tank for a while to make sure I know where to place it before plumbing. We have a whole house water filter and softener. I suppose that is good news if plumbing it in. Water out here in CA is not so great.
- Will use 15 Amp most likely, but I will eventually add a dedicated outlet for the machine and can easily make that 20 Amp. That will be down the road though.
- No problem tinkering. I'm an engineer
- Not sure yet on beans, but I expect I'll probably try all the local roasters in San Diego and settle on one and stay with it for a while. Maybe I'll try some non local roasters also. I have a lot of Lavazza to use up before starting with anything else. We buy it by the case. I should get through all that before I get a new machine anyway.
- Space - We just finished a major remodel of the house, including the kitchen. I didn't consider the detailed requirements for an espresso set up during that process, so I am pretty much stuck with equipment that will fit between my kitchen counter and upper cabinets (no place to set up a dedicated a coffee bar). That's got a 16" clearance because of the trim on the upper cabinets. It's 18" behind the trim. I don't want to modify the trim so I'll find equipment that I can use with this constraint. It seems that most E61 machines are 16.5" but some allow the cup rail to be removed and that can make them work for me. As for grinders, I can't have a 2 foot tall machine sitting on the counter blocking the upper cabinet doors, so I think I'll have to keep the hopper off so the grinder will fit under the upper cabinets when not in use and just install it when ready to grind, using as much coffee as I need at the time. Anyway that is what I am thinking at this point.

We just finished a major remodel of the house, including the kitchen.

Then, you should have two separate 20 amp GFI circuits in the kitchen to meet electrical code requirements. This was the requirement back in 1998 and so it may be even more stringent now.

I do have 2 GFIs. I just checked and I have 5 lines that were added for the kitchen 4 are 20 Amp and one is 15. None are marked. Now I remember my contractor saying "...and I still have to tag all the new electrical brakers in the panel." I guess that item is still on the punch list. I'll have to turn the 15 off and see what it is, then determine what is all on the 20 Amp lines. If I end up with a DB machine that allows 20 Amp mode, then where I want to put the machine is in the perfect spot to bring in a dedicated line since it is shared with the garage where I have an electrical sub panel.

Tom

OK, looks are also a factor but the Vetrano 2B EVO should fit the bill and leave enough room for a decent grinder budget.https://www.chriscoffee.com/Vetrano-2B- ... o2bevo.htm

If you can live without the shot timer you can save about $400 on a buyer remorse non-EVO.

Of course, the K30 with short hopper is also friendly under the counter.
https://www.chriscoffee.com/Mahlkonig-K ... variog.htm

Good luck!

First off, as stated before the most important part of pulling the best flavor from your beans is the grinder. If the grinder isn't up to it you'll soon notice when you have a shot from a better grinder. So look seriously at a nice grinder, as you already seem to be.

Not knowing what "style" of engineer you are I'll throw this out there. HG One grinder is loved by many that like manual grinding. Manual interaction with the grind and beans tells some here how the grind is going, whether the beans were roasted to their liking and so on. It's a fast grinder too, so it's not like you'll be cranking forever either.
(RPavlis has a nice thread on this grinder here: A year with HG One)