Re: The "NEW Izzo Alex Duetto II by Izzo" or "2011 NEW and IMPROVED VERSION 3 Vibiemme DoubleDomo Super PID"? Is there any difference?

Hi all,

I have been reading a lot trying to figure out which one I would rather buy, and I am trying to find the differences between the two and I don't really find anything.

Reading old threads comparing the two are king of ... well, old.. The threads are from about 2 years to 1 year ago, and both machines have been changed and upgraded since then.

There is the "NEW Alex Duetto II by Izzo", selling for $2395
And there is the "2011 NEW and IMPROVED VERSION 3 Vibiemme DoubleDomo Super PID", selling for $2,649.

(Names are quoted as they are displayed on Chriscoffee and 1st-line websites).

So there is a difference of $254 between the two. I don't see the reason why. Is there something I don't see on the VBM?

Some background and intention of use:

I will plumb the machine a couple of weeks after I'll receive it.

Stability and consistency between shots are of utmost importance. I need to be able to see how small changes in temp, duration, dose, tamping, etc affect the taste profile.

Steaming capability for latte art is also very important.

I will be making about 5-10 espresso/milk based drinks at a time.

Grinder (because I know you'll be asking... ) is going to be the Compak K-10 WBC. So I am set with the grinder.

I will also be interested to hear from people who have recently bought the Duetto and the DoubleDomo what made them choose one over the other. Especially, what propelled them to pay some 10% more for the VBM over the Duetto? What is it that I am not seeing??? (If any).

I am planning to buy within the next 2 weeks. So if it is the Duetto, it will be from the shipment that is on its way now.

Again, my apology if this subject seem to be bitten to pulp, but really I can not find any comparison between these two for the current models. The comparisons in this forum is for 1-2 years old models.

Thanks!

Dan

I do not know personally about the Duetto, but the Duetto needs a converter cord (necessary for 15 amp) for an additional $13.95. Does it come with the line to plumb it to water supply? The site does not seem to say, and that would be extra as well. The Duetto has a vacuum breaker valve that diverts steam back to water tank, but the OPV Valve also routes water back to drip tray, not back to the water tank. The vertical orientation of the motor means that is the pump leans the water can easily get into the motor.

The VBM has published specs on it's shot-to-shot performance in terms of temperature. All waste water and steam goes to drip tray. It is also very easy and quick to switch from plumb to reservoir for descaling. The VBM has some issues with fit and finish. Comes with drain and plumb hoses and fittings, as well as parts to covert the drip tray for plumb or not. I like the VBM group's use of socket-head bolts for the mushroom and lever making them easy to remove. The VBM is .75 taller, but the reservoir is open on top so easier to fill.

I think the list of home owners who have had both would be a short one, indeed.

Glad I am not having to make that choice... it was made for me..

In terms of espresso machines, both suppliers are among the top two in terms of reputation, so can't go wrong there.

Hi Randy, Thank you for your reply. You've sent me to do some more checking as I thought I've seen somewhere that these hoses are included.

I finally found it in the demonstration video that Chris had made. The drain hose is included, the water supply hose is included, and the water source switch lever (reservoir <-> plumbing) is accessible after removing the drain tray. Here are the pictures from the video.

Drain tray hose, included:


Water supply hose (plumbing), included:


Water supply switch lever, behind drain tray:



You are correct, the 15amp converter cord is $13.95 extra.

I am not sure what did you mean here, can you elaborate please?

I like the VBM group's use of socket-head bolts for the mushroom and lever making them easy to remove.

Also, regarding the grouphead. ChrisCoffee for Alex Duetto calls it "E-61 type" grouphead. 1st-Line DoubleDomo calls it "True E61" grouphead. I wondered about that. What's the difference? Or is it just marketing talks. None of these machines buy their heads from Faema is what I am guessing...

Regarding the vacuum breaker valve going to the water reservoir on the Alex, and out to the drain tray on the VBM. From looking at the video it looks like just a flexible plastic tube going from the vacuum breaker valve to the reservoir, and I am thinking if the idea bothers me than I could very easily pull it out and stick it into the drainage tray. I'm not sure how important is that?

The VBM company was founded by three executives who left Faema (the inventing company of the E-61). when they did, they took the patent with them. If you look at the top of the Vibiemme group, there is a separate piece that is held with two bolts. Instead of using a wrench, you can use an allen wrench to remove the two bolts and lift the entire mushroom assembly out, gicleur, screen, and all. Makes servicing a little easier.

I do not know the weight of the Izzo group, the VBM group is massively heavy.

Just to be open about it, while I do not have any direct affiliation with VBM nor benefit from sales, I did write the US owners manual for the DS and owned one for 4 years (now sold), and own the DD v.3 and am currently working on the (what will be a fairly massive) owners manual for that model. So I do have personal experience with those models. For the most part, the VBM's negatives are not related to the quality of the coffee it creates.

It is interesting that the Izzo uses a PID to regulate the steam boiler. I wonder how? And why? I don't think it matters, and I wouldn't buy it or not buy it for that feature.

The DD has the feed pipe for the brew boiler feeding through the steam boiler to preheat the water. I have Eric's group thermometer mounted and it shows some very stable temperatures during extraction. Wish I could afford a Scace Device.

But I want to reiterate, I am not intending on bashing the Izzo nor Chris Coffee. Just relating my personal observations as well as experiences. The water switch on the Izzo... Looks identical to the one on the VBM DD:


If you need any more info, check my "first look" of the DD as there are two internal pics (Review section of my website). Feel free to e-me or post here. whatever...

While I have not used the Duetto II, I was in the same position you are before making my ultimate decision to purchase the DD a few months back. In the end a few things swayed my decision. First, the published temperature stability which I believe is due in large part to the preheating tube running through the steam boiler. The biggest thing for me was actually the larger working area under the group. More headroom and larger drip tray area. This could be good or bad depending on the area you have for the machine - measure and be sure it fits. My understanding about the group is that the VBM uses the original Faema plans and it is massive. Others work the same but have less mass (read temp stability). Reservoir is open top so it is easy to fill.

Make sure you add $50 to the DII for the tray rails. Also, the VBM is designed for 15A and has full temp stability at that amperage.

Aside from these things they are very similar and I doubt if you would be disappointed with either one. IMHO at this pricepoint I don't care about $200 difference but that is just me. I really love the machine and lots of people love their DII's!

Before deciding for the LaSpaziale S1 Vivaldi, I perused through everything written about the Duetto (at that time, the newest DoubleDomobar wasn't out yet).

Here are a few potential issues with the Duetto, from my original thread:

Louis wrote:

• Both SSR and PID located in the hottest parts of the machine (PID close and nearly on top of the steam boiler, SSRs on the back of the front panel - one of them close to the group). Turning the steam boiler on-demand only will help prevent failures. Chris says this is not an issue, both Gicar, Izzo, and himself have done their homework (see this post by Chris Nachtrieb: Izzo Alex Duetto first pictures).
• [EDIT]Also, the pump is situated on top of the motor, instead of beside it as in most rotary pump machines. In case of a (slow) pump leak, this would lead to an expansive repair (pump and motor change). I'm not sure if it would be possible to put a cheap custom made splash screen between them, as it would probably hamper air flow through the pump motor. [EDIT]Discussed here: Risky Location of Pump on Alex Duetto?
  [...]
• Drip tray is not large enough (front to rear). I have to expect splashes on the counter when quickly cleaning the group after a session.

If I was doing the same exercise now, my final choice would be between the S1 Vivaldi II and VBM DoubleDomobar (instead of the Duetto). With the current feature set of the DD, I certainly might have ended with it instead of the S1. The only advantage of the S1 is being an automatic vs semi-auto for the DD.

LaDan wrote:There is the "NEW Izzo Alex Duetto II by Izzo", selling for $2935

Oh man. That typo made me do a double take. I knew inflation was bad, but not that bad! I had to go to Chris Coffee and check. Thankfully it is only $2395.

compliance wrote:Oh man. That typo made me do a double take. I knew inflation was bad, but not that bad! I had to go to Chris Coffee and check. Thankfully it is only $2395.

LOL.. Thanks. I fixed it.

Regarding the mass of the grouphead. Just from memory the E61 is about 9lbs, or something similar? I wonder what's the weight of the grouphead on these two machines.

Is there a difference in the water dispensers between the two?

Is there a difference in the "height" of the water dispenser (shower head) inside the E61 between the two? What I mean is, how much clearance is there between the dispenser and the basket? Does it go INTO the basket? How deep does it go into the basket? Is there a screw in the middle of the shower head? (I don't like that).

I tried to find pictures of the the screen of either these machines and could not find any.

To answer the question above, my kitchen counter space will leave about 1" between the top of the machine and the top cabinet. I am not going to use the top for cup warming. There's no room. So I will not buy the top shelf from CC for the Duetto. So that is not a deciding factor in my situation.

It does look like VBM put more thought into the design of DD than Izzo did, both from the engineering and ergonomic point of view.

What does SSR acronym stands for?

Question to the VBM owners: On the Alex, looking at Chris's video, you can see how the whole front moves when he puts in the portafilter. The front panel flexes with it. Is that also the case with the DD?

If you buy the Duetto, you'll probably want to pay a few bucks more for the handrails, and 15amp cord, but that would still leave the DD costing about $200 more. I don't think you'd be able to tell a difference in performance between the two, the designs are functionally the same, they're pid controlled double boilers with a preheat. The boilers may be slightly different (a little bigger on the Duetto), and the DD group weighs a bit more, but if you look up the temperature studies done on both they're both basically flat temp profile for any normal home usage - and they use similar (if not exactly the same) pumps. They'll both run at 15amp. The DD has a pressure stat, while the Duetto uses a PID for the steam boiler, but again, I don't think you could detect a difference between the two in regular usage.

The big factor in deciding to get one of these machines is that either is easily switched between pour over and plumbed in, I believe that they're the only two machines that make it so easy (even including all the hoses etc. you need).

Any real differences between the two are going to be small, things like size and clearance. One of the two just might fit in your kitchen a little better. If I had the choice between the two right now, it would be basically a toss up for me, the DD is a little bit more, but to my eye, it's a slightly prettier machine, so it would come down to if I wanted to pay a little extra for a little better looks.

But really, you can't go wrong with either (or with the K10), the combo of a good grinder with any machine in this class is going to give you great results with a little practice, I can't imagine you'd have any regrets with any choice you can make.

No handrails for me. I have no room. I am one inch from the top cabinet so there's no way I can fit any cups in there... With either machine. So the difference in price is still about $250. But to be honest, even if the price was the same I will still have the same dilemma between the two. The $250 extra just makes it more confusing "what is it that I am not seeing on the VBM that worth the additional $250" is added to my dilemma.

Aesthetics: I do think the Duetto is a little nicer looking with its curved side panels. The VBM looks too "boxy". Other than that, I really dig that design of the chrome exposed E61 machines. I think they are gorgeous!