First of all, THANK YOU to all the dedicated contributors to this forum. Secondly, I think I rue the day I stumbled upon coffeekid.com and realized what was out there. The knowledge and expertise within these pages rivals an M.I.T. particle physics class. There may be several contributors here who could benefit from medication or counseling, but hey, Van Gogh and Nietzche were a little off too. That being said, I am at an impasse.

My only machines have been a couple of steam toys I purchased in college. Terrible experiences. I didn't think of home espresso for 10 years. I have a good coffee shop that my wife and I patronize around the corner who roast their own and I have been satisfied with that. At home, we brew with a cone pourover set up since we can't stand drip coffee. My wife and I are still lowly milk-folk when it comes to espresso. I'll have the occasional macchiato, but I have never seen the light of a perfectly pulled shot. Sad really.

I apologize since this is a very tired and repeated story, but after reading up on coffeegeek, I had planned on buying a Gaggia Classic, Silvia, or other entry level machine. I have no problem paying my dues in the trenches, but I finally have the money to buy whatever I want. Which is my problem. I quickly determined from reading here at HB from and the experiences of others that within a short period, any entry level HX MIGHT have to be replaced with a higher end PID/HX or DB. I have every desire to perfect the art, but 1)the majority of what we drink will be capps, lattes, etc., 2)the wife will only be so willing to experiment with her pulls, and 3)I have no understanding why I'd purchase a $1600-1800 HX, only to have to install Eric's digital thermometer and do some sort of water dance. For that kind of money, I think the onus should be on my grind, coffee and tamp, not flushing a machine. I have NO interest in a superautomatic, so I naturally decided on a nice DB like the Mini Vivaldi II, Alex Duetto II, Expobar Brewtus III/IV or the soon to be released Vibiemme DoubleDomo. I haven't considered the GS/3, because I could never justify $6500 for a home espresso machine, regardless of my income. Now the Speedster.. so beautiful...

Anyway, I will be making 4-5 drinks a day, I'd like the machine to allow for a pretty easy learning curve for pulling a decent shot, and most importantly, I don't want to have to upgrade for at least 6-8 years. The PID controlled double boilers seem like the best bet, and I like that newer models can either be plumbed or use a reservoir. I'm not absolutely convinced that I need an E-61 group, since there seem to be a few higher end machines that do fine with different brew groups. Oh, and by the way, I have a Solis Maestro Plus right now, but will purchase a Vario when I buy the new unit.

These all seem like great choices, but MY QUESTION, to finally get to it, is: Based on my criteria, should I get an entry level HX instead? Like an Expobar Lever, Bezzera BZ07pDE, or Vibiemme Domobar Junior HX?
I would rather pay the extra 45-50% higher price tag on a high end HX or DB now, and not have to upgrade in 4yrs, but IF my fairly pedestrian needs will be met by a $1200 entry level HX machine, rather than a $2200 machine, I don't want to waste the money.

To put this in perspective, I brew beer. When I started, it was with plastic buckets and an enameled pot on the stove top. I quickly advanced to all grain brewing using coolers and large stainless pots using a gravity fed system, then I went to kegs I had specially welded and used pumps to build a two level, multi-burner HERMS-type (Heat Exchanged Recirculating Mash System) brewing set up. And I'm on my way to stainless conical fermentors..so I do like to tinker. But with espresso, I don't think the initial suffering is necessarily a good thing.

"Master Yoda, is the double boiler truly stronger?". "No...faster, easier, more seductive". "But how will I know?" "You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. No more caffeine will you have".

Welcome to H-B, I have no doubt you'll get excellent advice from the fine folks here, so I'll stick to telling you what I see in my crystal ball:

-eBay's logo is blinding me, please turn off that screen.
-There's a tall and bulky looking machine in your near future. It looks ugly yet beautiful. It chews small brown things when you put your hands on it. Wait! I see two of these things!
-I see smoke, I see chaff, I see bags of green beans, do you work in a coffee roasting factory?
-You're losing a sh** load of money, but .... you look happy? Maybe you're getting waaaaay richer than now? (yeah, right!)
-Wait, is that a Speedster I see? Umm, maybe it's a 1-group Strada? I don't know, way too far for me to see.

I'm sure you see what you have just got yourself into now

GrainBrewer wrote:I apologize since this is a very tired and repeated story, but after reading up on coffeegeek, I had planned on buying a Gaggia Classic, Silvia, or other entry level machine.... [however] based on my criteria, should I get an entry level HX instead?

You're right, the majority of those who continue to make espresso at home upgrade from entry level equipment (poll). If you can afford the extra cost, you could save a step; see Which espresso machine/grinder for $1500 budget? or use search to read about frequently recommended setups.

GrainBrewer wrote:Master Yoda, is the double boiler truly stronger?

Many discussions of this topic you will find, young padawan:

• HX vs DB
• HX vs double boiler in the real world
• The Worst Thing about HX Machines/Heat Exchangers are evil
• Why are HX espresso machines so popular?
• Some thoughts on heat exchanger vs. double boiler espresso machines
• Why not double boiler with PID?

The short answer is both designs have proponents. I don't mind the longer learning curve HX espresso machines require and I like the flexibility of on-the-fly brew temperature manipulation; the extra steps really grate on the nerves of some, leading them to upgrade to a dedicated brew boiler design.

Unless you want to brew back to back shots at varying temperatures, opt for a Double Boiler. Your missus will appreciate it.

Since you already have a decent non-espresso grinder, and appear to have the funds and appreciation, have you considered an espresso only grinder that you are unlikely to ever upgrade?

Thank you for the replies. I have read all of the articles, at least twice. The one thing that bothers me, is that the major contenders, in ANY price range, all seem to be found on different web sites. So calling Chris, or 1st-line, or WLL, or Stefano, will all get the endorsement of their own premier machine. This didn't happen by accident, of course. I would love to call one dealer, explain my position, and ask whether an Expobar, Vibiemme, or Quickmill (etc. would be the best fit for me). Of course I guess that's like going to a BMW dealership and asking if they think I'd be happier with a Mercedes.

I think I'm going to have to go with a DB. I just don't see the benefit v.s. challenge of learning an HX, even with PID, as being a selling point at that price range. I was still seriously thinking of putting in my time with a Silvia or another SB, to gauge my level of commitment, but that's another $650 in the drain if I want to upgrade in 2-3 years. Let's see what the new DoubleDomo looks like (and costs). I'd rather go straight to the Mongoose/Diamondback, rather than get the Huffy for Christmas and have to pout for 2 years

Happy New Year !

GrainBrewer wrote:I think I'm going to have to go with a DB. I just don't see the benefit v.s. challenge of learning an HX, even with PID, as being a selling point at that price range. I was still seriously thinking of putting in my time with a Silvia or another SB, to gauge my level of commitment, but that's another $650 in the drain if I want to upgrade in 2-3 years.

Having gone the HX route (successfully) I think the DB makes sense. The only 2 DBs I have experience with are the Dalla Corte and the Speedster. Of the DBs listed my impression is that the Vivaldi's have a high degree of owner loyalty and satisfaction. Based on reviews and owner feedback only (I have not used it) I would be inclined toward the Vivaldi if I were choosing - preferably plumbed in. If you can plumb it you will appreciate the convenience and lack of hassle.

Don't over think it. In this range the machines you are considering are all excellent. They all have "sweet spots" and you will find them. There are no miracle machines, at least in this price range. A PID'd HX machine? Sort of pointless to some extent. Waiting on the VBM Doubledomo sounds like a good idea. If what I have heard is correct it should be an excellent machine. I believe they are due in February from what I have read.

And me.. I skipped the Mongoose... I have a USA-made FatChance mountain bike and on the other wall, a Landshark Roadshark Tandem..

Who says you _need_ to upgrade if you don't buy a fancy double boiler machine?
Nobody is making you. You can be happy with your espresso, even if you might get espresso that is a tiny bit better for a significant cash outlay. You could buy other nice stuff with the money that you save.

GrainBrewer wrote:I think I'm going to have to go with a DB. I just don't see the benefit v.s. challenge of learning an HX, even with PID, as being a selling point at that price range. I was still seriously thinking of putting in my time with a Silvia or another SB, to gauge my level of commitment, but that's another $650 in the drain if I want to upgrade in 2-3 years. Let's see what the new DoubleDomo looks like (and costs). I'd rather go straight to the Mongoose/Diamondback, rather than get the Huffy for Christmas and have to pout for 2 years

I'm in pretty much the same place you are now. I've done the reading, made the comparisons and while I've not decided on a machine yet either, I've moved towards a DB instead of an HX machine. I know both types (depending on the quality of the machine) can make equally good espresso and milk drinks, but knowing my likes and dislikes I know the HX flush dance is not for me. I may want to vary the brew temp, but it won't be something I try to do on the fly. I know I PERSONALLY will be more comfortable being able to set the temps on the boilers instead of trying to flush to it each time. I also realize that level of exactness may not be absolutely necessary for making great espresso, but I will feel more comfortable while developing my barista skills if I know that's one less area I have to worry about adjusting.

Some think the added expense of a DB over an HX isn't worth it for what you get. They may be right. In many cases I've read people recommending someone spend a bit more to get a 'better' product (Vario v Maestro, Silvano v Silvia). The increased cost is often easy to justify when broken down over the life of the product. In the grand scheme of things, the extra money I spend, even if it is for diminishing returns, will be negligible over the life of the product. When making feature based decisions on a purchase, I tend to find myself in the "I'd rather have it and not need it" category. In the beginning it may seem like a significant increase in expense, but over the long haul maybe not so much.

$500-$600 spread out over 20 years? That's less than the cost of a monthly Starblecks latte (and an infinitely better investment).

GrainBrewer wrote:I'd rather go straight to the Mongoose/Diamondback, rather than get the Huffy for Christmas and have to pout for 2 years

In 1983 the missus gave me the Campy 50th Anniversary Gruppo for our anniversary. The ONLY frame I considered for such a gruppo was a Custom Klein Team Super, a fat tube aluminum frame with Boron for damping. Ride ready with Ti bits, 16.5 pounds. USD5400. The first ride : Holy Sh!t !!

Reality Check : Nothing else came close for more than 15 years.

Quality tells. Get the best you can afford that most esthetically pleases you.

All the machine does is heat and push hot water