BIKERBOB wrote:I would like your thoughts on the following machines as an upgrade; there are features I like on both

First the Expobar Office Control; like the idea of programmed shots; concerned about temperature stability (currently have a Solis sl90 which has this programmed shots) Expobar is $1300 cdn

Second the Quickmill Alexia; like pid option of temp control and the e61 group. Quickmill is $1400 cdn plus 320 for the pid option unsure if I would like making shots manually (not sure I can justify the added cash)

Is anyone aware if the Expobar can be fitted with a pid, and who could supply the necessary equipment and know how?

Thank you and again I await your thoughts

Like offerings from Quickmill, Vibiemme, Isomac, etc, the Expobar Control is a heat exchanger espresso machine based on the popular E61 group. I haven't read it closely, but this review on CoffeeGeek for the similar Office model seems fair. The Quickmill Alexia is a single boiler and is reviewed on this site here; it's a great "espresso purist" choice. I've tried it with and without the PID control; personally I think it's a must-have option since temperature surfing gets tedious quickly.

Since the Expobar Control and Office are heat exchangers, there's no point in fitting them with a PID temperature control for the steam boiler; PID on a HX...this is my thinking, is it flawed? explains why. To be fair, you could go with a PID if you adopt Ian's hybrid approach documented in HX Heaven or 1½ Boiler, but most people weighing the HX/PID option decide on a double boiler instead.

PS: I merged your new thread on the same subject with your previous one; keeping your buying discussion in one thread helps others follow your decision making process.

NO PROBLEM DAN
WILL READ THE ARTICLES YOU MENTION

You may want to check out Solis SL-90 Adjustable Brew Temperature. So modified, the SL90 is capable of very fine espresso.

Failing that, Vibiemme Domobar Double Boiler v3 equivalent or better.
The others mentioned are way points.
If money is an object, update the SL90 and stick $50 / month into a savings account for 12 to 18 months. In 10 years, you'll be glad you did

Expobar Brewtus III and IV are double boilers and come with PIDs. Have had mine for about 20 months and love it. Consistency and great microfoam are its hallmarks along with a huge drip pan that doesn't have to be emptied every day. Higher priced but if looking for the ease of use of a DB machine, its a good choice

I have the Expobar Office Control. I checked with WLL a while back regarding PID temp control and was told that PID was not possible. I have found that temp surfing gives fairly consistent results, as determined by taste. I don't have the ability to measure temp at the group head.

John

It's possible to put a PID on the machine, but all your gaining is 1) making it a little easier to affect boiler pressure (and thus flush amount/time), and 2) replacing a mechanical wear item (pressure stat) with a solid state control.

jfrescki wrote: making it a little easier to affect boiler pressure (and thus flush amount/time)

Actually a LOT easier

Minor disagreement with Ike, but while I've tried a PID HX, I've never lived with one. So, who are you going to trust? But really... temping an HX is almost entirely a matter of focus and paying attention.

Another advantage to a PID is that good ones, if appropriately installed, tend to last longer and be more reliable than most p-stats. I got 20 years on the p-stat on my Livia 90, so don't hold your breath.

All in all, the conversion probably isn't worth the time, expense or trouble unless and until the p-stat fails out of warranty.

I think you should do some serious thinking and reading before deciding on which basic types of machine -- double boiler or HX; consumer with features or bare-bones prosumer -- will serve you best, before you start worrying about details like PID on an HX.

The drums say the Breville is more convenient and has a flatter learning curve than your listed alternatives. Both require some skills to make decent coffee, the HXs require more. The Breville doesn't appear to be as well built in the sense that it uses a lot more consumer grade plastic.

As a small appliance manufacturer, Breville competes with Kitchen Aid and Cuisinart on a more or less equal footing. Had KA or Cuisinart decided to make a competent machine, got the engineering and components right, while not spending any more money on assembly and casing than necessary, they each would have built very much the same machine. As a consumer you get value benefits of economy of scale, Asian production, and long term amortization of development costs that manufacturers like QM and Expo can't match. On the other hand, you give up quite a bit in other areas.

Good luck,
BDL

I would appreciate your comments on the bezzera bz07de
How long has the 07 been in production?
What is the reliability like for these machines?
Any other comments which you wish to share?
What sort of learning curve is there for an HX machine?
thank you
Bikerbob

Bob, I merged your new thread asking about the Bezzera with your existing thread; it's easier for others to offer advice if they have the full view of your buying decision. To your question, I recently wrote a review for WIRED magazine featuring the Bezzera BZ07 entitled "Fuel Rockets". While the article doesn't call out the BZ07's years in production, I believe it answers your other questions (short answer: yes, it's a great choice). If not, please let me know.