Hello, trying to decide on a decent machine. I'm an espresso only kinda guy, approx 8 or 10 a day.
"Yummy" shots are my paramount concern followed by not breaking the bank on a machine.

1. I have never tried a "prosumer" E61 type machine (or shot) but understand they are both forgiving and make really nice espresso, crema, body etc. So, have been considering the Alexa at approx. $1200

2. Also like the idea of a lever as price can be quite a bit lower than the Alexa by about a 1/3 rd.

I understand about the learning curve and have read that levers are supposedly lighter on the crema and body?. (maybe Creminas excepted?, anyway I kept getting outbid on them so have decided on a new machine).

With the above in mind I am considering either the Ponte Vechio 'Export' ($840), the La Pavoni Europiccola at around $700 or a Gensaco lever machine which sells for approx. $500 (I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone that knows a little about the Gensaco model. As far as I can see it looks very much like the 'Export' but with a painted body?? )

Therefore given the above choices and my 2 stated requirements ie: "Yummy" shots and a machine that doesn't break the bank (can't spend more than an Alexa would cost, even thats a stretch), what would your preferences be? I don't really have a preference in terms of either "bright" or "comfort blend" type shots, love them all as long as they "schmeck".

(I will be using either a Baratza Vario or a Rocky or a used Super Jolly with the above. Will also be roasting my own.)

Thank you for any help and opinion on the above scenario, -it would be greatly appreciated.
Merry Christmas!
Ted.

bigredted wrote:Hello, trying to decide on a decent machine. I'm an espresso only kinda guy, approx 8 or 10 a day.

So you won't be needing a machine that is built to last.

bigredted wrote:I understand about the learning curve and have read that levers are supposedly lighter on the crema and body?. (maybe Creminas excepted?, anyway I kept getting outbid on them so have decided on a new machine).

I want to dispel this notion that levers have a difficult learning curve. They do not. They have a difficult "unlearning curve" for those who began with electric pump machines and stubbornly treat the lever as if it were an electric pump machine.

With a lever machine if you grind a little more finely and tamp very lightly and develop a simple preinfusion technique, you can have a good shot every time. Most domestic levers are optimal for two or three shots before they overheat. The Ponte Vecchio Lusso can do more. Domestic spring levers max out at around 6 bars and so their crema tends to be a little creamier than the crema of a 9+ bar machine; not as mousse-like. But it's not a meager crema by any means. The domestic spring levers also tend to have a smaller water draw--so the shots are "classic" in volume. They can also steam milk during the extraction, something manual levers and entry-level pump machines cannot do. Adjust your technique to these basic facts and you're a happy camper.

Well, all the machines you have mentioned will make 'yummy' shots. Different yummy shots. Whether one is better than the other is personal preference. As a generalisaton, pump machines like the Alexia will deliver fuller bodied, heavier toned, chocolately espresso with loads of crema. Lever machine espresso will be more subtle, more balanced, a little less crema but just as yummy. And certainly in my opinion at least, the more preferable shots come from the levers.

I have both the Europiccola and the Ponte Vecchio - although the Lusso version. Here are my comments on your machines:

- Alexia. A great machine undoubtedly. But for me at least I couldnt justify spending this amount of money on a single boiler/dual use machine. You may as well get a HX machine. But given that you are an espresso chap at heart, this plays to the strengths of the machine. It has an E61 head which means temperature stability for multiple shots as well as intrashot - and you will not get this to the same extent on the lever machines you have mentioned. But, as you say, it is by far the more expensive machine. The review here on HB is excellent.

- LP EP. A wonderful, fully manual hand lever machine. There will be a learning curve in getting the best out of it (not much of one), but sublime espresso is achievable and the good news is that you have the grinder quality already that can achieve this. They are finicky machines however in that all your variables have to be spot on, otherwise your espresso will be off. The Export and Alexia have more 'forgiveness'. The other issues on the EP is that they have a tendency to overheat on multiple shots (after 2 shots in reality) which will materially harm the quality of your espresso. This is because the group is essentially bolted onto the boiler. There are workarounds such as ice, cold cloths, switching the machine off at the 'right' time which are all faffs in my opinion. The machine is not designed for multiple espressos in succession so you should be aware of this. In addition, all the EP's are built not in the same way. If you are to buy these on ebay, go for the older, pre millenium editions which have a dual heating I/II switch. The Millenium editions, particularly the earlier ones, are of dubious quality using plastic pistons and sleeves which had the habit of unscrewing themselves, blocking off water when brewing. I know this by bitter experience and it is a well known problem. If you are buying brand new then you might be ok. But go with the classic pre milleniums if you can.

- Ponte Vecchio. A lever machine that is spring loaded, and my favourite machine that I have used. The pressure extracted by the spring is more gentle, tapered and this brings out the best in espresso. They are highly forgivable, and have a bit more heat tolerence on multiple shots. The Lusso, the Export's cousin, can handle multiple pulls as it's group is connected to the boiler by thermosyphon tubes. The Export is similar to the EP in that it is bolted to the boiler, but as it has a bigger group and therefore bigger heat sink, it can handle a couple of more pulls before it overheats. The biggest downside is that the PV's, particularly the newer production models, do have a 'rough' finish to them that is imprecise (say compared to the Elektra MCaLs and Creminas) and there has been reported issues on seal/lube quality when brought direct from factory. All fixable, but I would make sure that you buy it from a reputable dealer. If you find a Sama machine, they are the same as PV's, but earlier models with better build quality, and are highly respected machines.

- Gensaco lever. Never heard of this little one, but on inspection it is the same thing as the Riviera, which is the same thing as the Savinelli. It is also a spring loaded hand lever. I imagine it would have the same overheating issues as the Pav. They look gorgeous with good specs and apparant build quality, however the lack of a community and feedback would be my main concern. Hopefully someone can can offer some actual experience with these machines, as they are keenly priced.

My money would on the Ponte Vecchio Export in your choices. However if you bang out 3/4 espresso at a go then you may be directed towards the Alexia, or can I suggest the PV Lusso?

Other levers are the Olympia Creminas - are expensive but excellent, life time quality, as so are the Elektra's Micro Casa a Leva. The other option is to find a classic/vintage gravity boiler machines such as the Peppinas and the Caravels. All they do is espresso, and mighty fine ones at that - repeatedly. They are rare and are now fetching ever increasing prices, but you should be able to pick one up at around $350 if you are patient and lucky.

Good luck in your search.

Heh Heh!, Hey Timmo, what are you suggesting here? 8-10 espressos a day will shorten my life span?
(Maybe you aren't kidding?)

Thanks for advice guys, I do appreciate.

Cheers,
Ted

P.S. I thought the $500 Gensaco was simply a rebadged PV Export, sans chrome?

I've had a look at their Gensaco's website. http://www.gensaco.com/esprequip_comp.html. The lever I was refering to is on the left as you scroll down. That is what I thought you were referring to.

But I have noticed that if I scrolled down further, you get other levers. These are indeed Ponte Vecchio's without doubt. So hardly their machines as they claim!

timo888 wrote:I want to dispel this notion that levers have a difficult learning curve. They do not. They have a difficult "unlearning curve" for those who began with electric pump machines and stubbornly treat the lever as if it were an electric pump machine.

I've used the Elektra Microcasa a Leva and Olympia Cremina for years (sold the latter last year). I authored the Ponte Vecchio Lusso review and contributed to the Gaggia Achille review and Lever Espresso Machines Smackdown. I am a card-carrying member of the LMWDP. I present my "lever résumé" to add credibility to the following:

Like pump-driven espresso machines, levers are not created equal. Some require more barista skill than others. Some lever machines require more barista skills than some pump-driven espresso machines. Some pump-driven espresso machines require more barista skills than some levers.

This is a long way of saying that buyers should be wary of those making generalizations. As is human nature, baristas favor what they're most familiar with, sometimes to the point that they see any other design as intrinsically inferior (e.g., there are similar arguments about double boilers versus HX designs, E61 versus non-E61, saturated groups versus thermosyphon designs, etc.). It is wise to ask for specifics.

For those who are offering advice, please be open and honest. The Guidelines for productive online discussion elaborate on this point:

Many people rely on opinions presented in these forums as part of their purchase decision. The source of the information you present and basis of the opinions you express are as important at the statements themselves. For example, you should make it clear whether you speak from first hand experience, what you read elsewhere (and if appropriate, link to the source), or conventional wisdom.

Buy a lever. The rest of you get over it.

You could be LMWDP # 276.

You know you want a lever.

Domestic levers were designed to produce a classic espresso: a few sips of intensely flavorful coffee. They were designed to be used by the average person in the home: in Italy espresso is a popular drink not a boutique beverage or an enthusiast's preoccupation. As long as you don't approach espresso as an X Games production, making espresso on domestic levers is easy.

The mistake I see often is that a newbie to levers will have read up on barista technique after watching espresso-porn videos with big-gulp triples and then will try to translate that technique, unmodulated, to a domestic lever; and when he or she runs into trouble, such as shots that stall midway, the false conclusion will be that levers have a steep learning curve. They do not. They have a steep unlearning curve.

I've also seen accomplished baristas familiar with a wide range of prosumer class machines approach a domestic lever not on its own terms.

I'll chime in here. For disclosure, I own a Spaziale Viv 2 Mini and an Olympia Cremina. I use the Vivaldi much more because my wife and I drink capps, however I will tell you that when I pull shots on the Cremina, I am always amazed at their clarity and the nuances of flavors that I perceive compared to the pump machines. If I was an espresso only drinker, I would use my lever all the time. Which gets around to my suggestion of looking for an Olympia Cremina on eBay or elsewhere. Because of your price point, a new one is far out of the question, but a used one is possible for $800-900 approximately, on the basis of recent sales. Bob Craig, I think, had and maybe still has one for sale on CG that's been reconditioned. The Cremina will last for decades and can be rebuilt easily enough. Look at Orphanespresso's web site for more info. I wouldn't let the fact that it's used scare you off. If you want new, I would go with the Lusso (based on what I've read), mainly for it's temp stability. If you're doing only 1-3 shots at a time, the Export would be OK. If you're the sort who enjoys well made machinery and gets a charge out of using beautifully made stuff,the Cremina is a good choice. I also would mention the Elektra MCal which you can possibly find used in your price range. Well made and makes great shots (again from my reading). Michael