Mazzer Super Jolly vs. Mini E vs. Macap M4

by **Bob_McBob** on Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:53 am

My current setup is an Izzo Duetto and Macap M4 stepless. I can't say I'm horribly unhappy with it or anything like that, but I often read comments about the Super Jolly being quite a step up from the typical M4/Mini setup.

I initially resisted buying a used Super Jolly instead of the M4 because of the hassle of finding one on eBay, trying to get the seller to ship to Canada, ordering new burrs and refurbishing the unit, etc. A typical (US$350 or so) used SJ on eBay would end up costing around C$650-700 after shipping, tax, and buying new burrs, plus the time to fix it up. I could get one new for about C$1020, so I'd probably be inclined to go that route.

I am wondering how much of a difference I might see vs. the M4 in terms of both cup quality and ease of use in dialing in grind settings and such. The stepless adjustment on the M4 is via a worm gear that gives very fine control of the adjustment. Having seen what just a single turn of the worm gear can do to the shot, how easy is it to dial in adjustments with the SJ? From a practical standpoint, what is the minimum height of the SJ with a canning funnel hopper or the smallest hopper Mazzer makes?

I've also been considering the Mazzer Mini E, which I gather has larger burrs like the SJ, but isn't in quite the same class. The only reason this is attractive is because of the amount of coffee I seem to end up wasting by having the clear the grind chute and doser for each of the several espresso sessions I do every day.

by **Bob_McBob** on Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:29 pm

I don't like to bump threads for attention, but I thought there might be a little more interest in this topic. I've read through the similarly titled grinder comparison threads (and everything I can find on the Super Jolly), but they don't really go into specifics on most of the details I asked about.

by **JohnB.** on Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:20 am

Hi Bob - I went from the stepless M4 to an SJ & then on to the Majors. The SJ is a noticeable step up from the M4 & I'd definitely recommend the upgrade. Dialing in the grind is very easy on the SJ although micro adjustments aren't as slick as with the M4 worm adjuster. The SJ is much easier to break down for cleaning & with a couple simple doser mods you will have very little waste when changing beans if you grind per shot as I do. If you find a good deal on a Major I'd recommend that even higher as I prefer the power & larger burrs of the Major over the SJ.

Here are some height measurements:

Old Style SJ w/ short Mini hopper = 18.25"
" " " w/no hopper = 13.25"

New Style SJ w/ short Mini hopper = 19.25"
" " " w/no hopper = 14.25"

Major w/no hopper = 15.25"

I used my espresso SJ hopperless & just placed a double basket with a tamper in it in the burr throat when grinding, same as I do with the Major. I find the Major clears the chute better then the SJ but with the velcro mod, a modified upper sweeper spacer & minimal brush work to clear out the chute the doser is pretty much clean after dosing. I'd also consider a plastic version of Andy's Schectermatic a must do mod.

by **da gino** on Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:36 am

I loved my Macap and would not have bought a Super Jolly if I hadn't gotten an SJ for a steal so I could basically break even selling the M4 and buying a like new Super Jolly, but I like the Super Jolly much more. The best shot from each was about the same, but the percentage of great shots definitely went up for me dramatically with the Super Jolly. I think the Pavoni I was using them with was picky and I don't know if the percents would have been the same on another machine. If I started from scratch I'd buy a used, good condition super Jolly as they seem to be the best bargain on the used market, but I don't know if I would buy one new since they are expensive new I might go back with the Macap again if I didn't want to buy used.

by **Bob_McBob** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:56 am

Thanks for the height measurements, John. The cupboards where I'm living now are really low, to the point that my M4 only just fits underneath without the hopper lid (about 17"). I guess I could probably just get by with a canning funnel on top of the new style SJ, but I move around a lot, so I don't want to let that aspect dictate what I buy.

<eBay rant>
I do like the sound of the Major, but buying one used would be even more of a pain than getting an SJ, since they come up a lot less frequently on eBay. The problem with the eBay grinders is that very few of the sellers actually list shipping to Canada in their auctions, so I have to e-mail every single seller to see if they're willing to ship here. Some aren't, then I eliminate grinders that are in terrible shape/ancient, and there isn't a lot left over. THEN I have to actually bid and win one.

After all that, and paying $85 for shipping, 13% tax, and 2.5% exchange fee on top of the rate, I'm probably more inclined to buy a new SJ for C$1000 all-in vs. paying 30% less for an old grinder I have to clean up and install new burrs.
</eBay rant>

I know this is rather subjective, but in terms of upgrading from the M4, am I better off just buying an SJ, or should I hold out for a Major? It does seem like the Major is the last bastion of sanity before you get into crazy territory. Are there any practical considerations like grind retention?

by **jherm77** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:04 am

Bob,

Jason/afkitchenkniveguy here...good to see you are into other hobbies outside of knifeforums. I am thinking of getting a SJ to match my mazzer mini. Maybe I could sell a few knives

by **zin1953** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:13 am

Bob_McBob wrote:It does seem like the Major is the last bastion of sanity before you get into crazy territory.

The advantage to "crazy territory" is that it never seems to the afflicted individual that he or she is crazy -- rather, it's only the rest of the (non-crazy) world who thinks they are, and who's to say who is really the crazy one? (Remember "King of Hearts" with Alan Bates?)

That said, I am somewhat bemused that the Mazzer Major is now the "new black," the "last bastion [grinder] of sanity before you get into crazy territory." I'm still back at thinking that any grinder that's realistically capable of handling the demands of a café is probably excessive for home use. Thus, once you get "above" a Mazzer Mini or a Macap M4, you're already nuts . . . and welcome to the club! (After all, this is from someone who owns a Malhkönig K30 Vario and a Cimbali Max Hybrid -- proof positive I live in "crazy territory"!)

* * * * *

Now, having said all that, I too would move up from the Macap M4 -- not that there is anything wrong with the Macap. The biggest single improvement I ever made to the quality of my espresso in terms of equipment was upgrading from a Mazzer Mini to a Cimbali Max Hybrid. I was amazed that a grinder could make that much difference to what was in the cup! Especially because I thought -- or, at least, others thought -- I was already in "crazy territory" with a Mazzer Mini (then $400+ new). I would presume you would find a similar improvement to your espresso if your Izzo Duetto were paired with an SJ rather than the current M4. (FWIW, the CMH is 17" high with the hopper, cannot be used without it, and is very difficult if not impossible to find one used.)

Cheers,
Jason

by **Bob_McBob** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:25 pm

I'm fairly set on upgrading my grinder now, but I'm still having a hard time comparing the Super Jolly to the Major. Obviously the Major is made for even higher output/duty in a cafe setting, which is completely meaningless to me at home. I have read that because the Major ejects grinders at high speed, distribution and clumping are improved, which is obviously a good thing for any user. Also, subjective improvements in cup quality... The height of the Major is a consideration, especially since the new style with interlock apparently doesn't accept the short Mini hopper.

The question is obviously whether the Major is enough of an improvement over the SJ to justify the extra expense to a home user, or simply overkill. There aren't a lot of direct comparisons available, especially since the Major wasn't included in the Titan Ginder Project.

As a matter of value, here are some comparative prices (CAD, including tax/shipping):

Super Jolly (new): $900-1000
Super Jolly (used): $500-700 (lower end of range if I can find a Canadian seller)

Major (new): $1375
Major (used): $800 (possibly plus new burrs)

by **Endo** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:28 pm

Bob,

I live in Canada as well and upgrade last year from a Mazzer Mini to a Mazzer SJ.

I bought new as well for most of the reasons you described. E-bay sounds like a good deal but it can easily turn into a disaster for heavy, expensive gear that must be bought "sight unseen" from someone you don't know and then shipped over the border. Even if everything does arrive intact, once you pay over $400 US on E-bay, you are not saving much over new when you factor in all the other charges and exchange rates.

I bought mine for $750 at the Greenbeanery in Toronto about 6 months ago. It was the last SJ in stock(yes!

).

Is it worth upgrading to commerical "Titan" grinder? Probably not. But that hasn't stopped anyone yet.

by **JmanEspresso** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:13 pm

I own a major, never owned a superjolly.. I did use one for about 10 minutes. My Major is an older model, its a manual(simple on/off switch), and the cord comes out the bottom, not the side.

The thing(s) I like about the major are
1. Speed... The thing is a demon, roughly 5 seconds for 18grs.
2. 83mm Burrs, as opposed to the 64mm burrs on the SJ.. This puts the major in the "LARGE Planar burr territory". A main advantage of this is LESS day-to-day adjustment of your grind. Less fiddling. I know for fact, if im working with ONE blend/bean, the grind setting stays the same for 2-3 days, and the next needed adjustment is a notch.
3. The exit chute is very easily cleared. I generally need only to Brush, Bump motor, Brush and its clean.
4. Grinds are the definition of "Fluffy", zero clumping.
5. Slighty more room(?) under the doser for a WDT cup.
6. Works well without a hopper, minimal popcorning.(Almost none)
7. Clumping is nill whether you use the doser or not*. My doser is currently off because of a TINY part breaking, and I miss it. Ive got the soda-bottle mod on there.. It works fine, but I miss my doser.

I love my grinder. Its quiet, fast and efficient. It will likely last forever. I have no desire for any other flat-burr grinder. I am considering a conical, but the major will stay with me till I die. And then It will be buried with me.

The super-jolly is a definite step up from the M4. While I think the major is a step up from the SJ, its an exponentially smaller step up. Arguably, the SJ is the turning point for improvement vs. price. To see a PROFOUND difference in the cup, you'll need to spend a lot more then the difference of the SJ/Major.

If you can find a major for roughly the same price as a super jolly, take it, but dont make yourself crazy trying to find a major, a super jolly is a fine piece of equipment. The other grinder i might consider is the cimbali Max Hybrid.. Most everyone loves theirs, and it was comparable to the Kony in the TGP, consistency wise.(I read this, I cant find the post though) Id go for the major if I could find it, because if you ever do upgrade from a superjolly, most likely you'll pass the major and go for a conical.. So why not have the slightly better, faster, larger burr'ed grinder to start with. The size difference is minimal as well.

The Mini-e has the same size burrs as the superjolly, but the cutting surface is different. IIRC, its not the same "3-stage" cutting surface as the SJ, and most others.

As I said, I love my major.

by **CRCasey** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:43 pm

Bob_McBob wrote:Major (new): $1375
Major (used): $800 (possibly plus new burrs)

Not saying this is typical but locally purchased Major (Astoria plate) was $450.00 and a factory burr set from EPNW was a bit over $50.00 with tax and shipping.

So for a bit of cleaning time you could have one of the longest running, best track record 83mm grinders for the $5-6 bill range. Good deals like that are around a lot of the time, I know they had at least two more sitting there for that price.

All I am saying is that going big may not cost as much as you have budgeted for.

Good luck on your hunt.

-Cecil

by **Bob_McBob** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:08 pm

CRCasey wrote:Not saying this is typical but locally purchased Major (Astoria plate) was $450.00 and a factory burr set from EPNW was a bit over $50.00 with tax and shipping.

Yep, that is fairly typical. My final price of $800 is in CAD, with a 2.5% exchange fee, 13% sales tax, and $100 shipping. All the prices I listed represent the final overall cost to me for each option.

Used Majors and high-end grinders in general seem to be pretty much impossible to find in Canada. I've been checking the Toronto-area Craigslist for a couple of months, and I've only seen one Super Jolly, which was long gone by the time I heard back from the seller. On eBay, Majors are rare enough in the States, let alone here, now that most of the liquidated Starbucks stock is gone.

by **da gino** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:21 pm

I got to play around with a bunch of high end grinders from the Super Jolly up through the Robur. The one I wanted when I left after pulling about 10-20 shots on each was the Super Jolly. I didn't think it was better than the Robur in my unscientific and haphazard testing, but it wasn't obvious it was noticeably worse either for a home barista. (Extra speed, electronic dosing, etc are fun and a bonus, but not essential for me at home). The SJ had the advantages of being a better size for my kitchen and much cheaper, so it was an easy choice for me and in the 6 months or so I've owned it I've never had any desire to replace it and I don't think that will change. Even if the Robur, K10, etc had been the price of the Major I would have gone with an SJ. if they'd all been the same price as the SJ I probably would have gotten one of the huge grinders and been banished from the kitchen. So I guess what i'm saying is that the Major probably has advantages over the Super Jolly, but I wouldn't sweat it.

Also I didn't do a search to give you a direct link, but I've seen Dan mention several places that if he weren't running HB he'd be happy with a SJ as his grinder (and that deserves far more weight than my comments)!

Hugh

by **Endo** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:05 pm

Bob_McBob wrote:Used Majors and high-end grinders in general seem to be pretty much impossible to find in Canada.

You're right. But that applies to any Mazzer. I put my Mazzer Mini on Craigslist in Canada and it was sold the same day for 80% of what I paid new.

Another good reason why not to shy away from buying a new Mazzer.

by **CRCasey** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:08 am

I do love the grind my Major gives me day in and day out. But there is one down side. The thing grinds so fast that it is hard to flip it on and off fast enough to run doserless. But I am building a timer for it that I can adjust to .1sec. That is the benefit of DIY I guess. For most cases that would be overkill, but not for that beast.

-Cecil

by **Bob_McBob** on Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:27 pm

This is a tougher choice than I thought it would be. I'm thinking of starting a poll! :shock:

On the one hand, the Super Jolly seems like a reasonable upgrade to the M4 (unless you head over to the coffeesnobs forum...). On the other hand, the idea of even fluffier grinds, much faster grinding and perhaps somewhat less day-to-day tinkering with grind settings is very appealing to me. The added size and issues with the interlock collar on the new Majors are annoying, though.

I don't really see myself buying a conical or anything really crazy beyond this any time in the next few years, so I don't want to let that idea influence my decision. I'd certainly like to make it a big upgrade I won't regret and end up upgrading again later. Hmm... To update prices, we are talking about C$885 for the SJ or C$1300-1400 (depending on whether I can call in a favour with a visiting friend) for the Major.

Whatever grinder I buy, I definitely want to run it off an external timer. It's not so much for dosing (I weigh all my doses) as being able to thwack and distribute in the PF basket without having to worry about turning off the grinder in the middle so I don't overshoot. This is probably a topic for a separate thread, but I'd certainly be interested to see what you're putting together, Cecil. The only feasible options short of tinkering yourself seem to be the 1s Waring timer and used (ugly!) darkroom timers on eBay.

by **CRCasey** on Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:42 pm

The timer for the Major is second or third down on my list at the moment. But when I do get to it I will post coverage of it. But in general it is simple... A small micro controller, a display, a knob or switch or two, matching cords for the grinders AC plugs, and a 110/220v solid state relay will fill the bill.

If there is a calling I could move it up on the project list. But it would be in the $80-100 range depending on the cost of the SSR.

That would be in line with a timer that comes on the machines equipped with them.

-Cecil

by **Bob_McBob** on Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:07 am

A lot of diy grinder timers seem to be built around digital timer units like this. I think espressoparts actually has a modification service that fits a Delta CTA4 into the side of the grinder. Add $200 worth of very expensive Mazzer parts and it seems to be functionally identical to the dosereless electronic grinders.

What's required in addition to the timer other than a relay and switch? I assume a little more is needed if you want an external box for the grinder to plug into vs. just bypassing the internal switch.

by **CRCasey** on Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:40 am

The only thing you need other than that is a legal team to make sure you are not liable for any damages.

You know, water and 1500 watts of power are a suit waiting to happen if your box is on the counter.

No matter how much you idiot proof anything they will allways come up with a better idiot.

-Cecil

by **Bob_McBob** on Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:19 pm

This is pretty much how darkroom timers and the Waring appliance timer work, isn't it? Obviously the appliance timer is reasonably well-protected against splashes, but darkroom timers generally aren't. Anyhow, the only benefit to building an external power box like this is to avoid having to disassemble the built-in switch like I originally described.

Apparently the doserless chute Mazzer uses on the larger electronic grinders is not available for purchase separately. I read a post from espressoparts last year saying they'd have them by October 2008. I just heard back from them today, and it's still not available. I'm not holding my breath on that one...


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