aspenedelen wrote:Jason:

what I take from your post is that capsules are not the way to go correct? Was the Gaggia Classic discontinued too? That is at least what coffeegeek says in the latest review.

Personally, I wouldn't go near a capsule, but your preferences may differ.
I don't believe the Gaggia Classic was discontinued - at least, it's still readily available from numerous retailers, including Sur La Table, as Jason pointed out.

Anthony, I am not trying to offend, and yet I fear that I will inadvertently do so. I know you have said you want both convenience and quality, and that you do not want to sacrifice quality, but everything else you've said here suggesting a rush to get going in the morning, a sense of haste, that time (and speed) is of the essence, that there's no time to waste, and every other cliché one can come up with. Forgive me if I have misinterpreted you, but this is the impression I have gotten time and again in this thread.

Keeping that in mind, let me just say that I rarely recommend a super-auto to anyone*. I think I can count the number of times I have done so on one hand. But I think that may be the answer in your case.

Capsules are better than pods. Neither is a preferred option, however.

The Gaggia Classic is sold out according to the websites of many vendors. The importer's website does not say it has been discontinued.

If you are looking at a grinder with a 38mm conical burr set, you might want to save additional money and get one from Vanelli's, such as their Mini-Pro III, or perhaps even their Mini-Pro II (although that is a stepped grinder). Then again, if you get a super-auto, you won't need a grinder . . .

Cheers,
Jason

* Home-barista and coffeegeek are both filled with threads about people who begin by asking about what super-auto they should buy. The thread continues with the regulars on these sites (myself and many, many others) explaining about the trade-offs with a super-auto and that making great coffee requires a more "hands-on" approach. And the thread ends with someone excitedly saying they purchased a semi-auto and the quality they get is so much better than with a super-auto.

Jason,

I really appreciate the feedback with this espresso/coffee post. I am not offended whatsoever because I am trying to learn. For starters I am not going to go the capsule or pod route due to the negative feedback from most if not all of the people that have talked about them on all posts that I have read about them.

Secondly, since time is of the essence for me (most of the time) most of the year, and the more and more I ponder this decision, and the fact I am only 32 and have plenty more years of serious coffee and espresso enjoyment, I am heavily leaning towards the convenience of a super-auto over the time consuming super good espresso. Granted, I may be drinking a lesser quality espresso and cappuccino but when I wake in the morning to clean a this particular Vet Clinic that I clean twice a week at 4:30am I would love to just be able to press a button and a espresso is made ASAP to get me going. Now maybe at 35 or 36 I'll be able to hire 2 people full time for my business and let them clean carpets all day while I can enjoy the 15 or so minutes it takes to make a really serious cup of espresso 10 times a day.

Would you recommend the Jura Impresso Capressa F9 Refurb? This machine sells for something like 1799.00 but the Seattle Coffee has it on refurb for 799.00. Now, I can fully understand that refurb does not mean brand new but with my Amex card I will get a additional one year warranty in addition to the 1 year manufacturer's warranty. One of the main attractions to this model is that it isn't cheap and from what everyone on coffee and espresso forums say the higher in price you go with super-autos the quality in these machines go up. Now, I would love to save some money and buy a $599 super-auto but is it worth it?

Direction would be nice.

I'll play the devil's advocate in regard to the Nespresso Capsules. They don't taste all that bad and are certainly fast and clean. If you have a Williams Sonoma nearby anywhere they will demo the machine for you and you can have a taste and see if you like it. I personally think they would taste better than what you might get from a super-auto at a much lower initial cost. Really, there is nothing better than trying before buying in this case.

The benefit of starting from scratch is that you have nowhere to go but up, even if it takes a couple years to get there.

I'm not an expert on super-autos. To the best of my knowledge, the F9 has been a successful model; that said, it's also discontinued by the manufacturer . . .

Get the best one you can afford. Use the AMEX to extend the warranty.

That said, GO to Sur La Table and/or Williams-Sonoma. Forget the semi-autos. But have them demo BOTH the supers and the Nepresso capsules . . . nothing any of us can say substitutes for you tasting the results for yourself!

aspenedelen wrote:...I am heavily leaning towards the convenience of a super-auto over the time consuming super good espresso.

It puzzles me that you're willing to accept mediocrity.

Espresso demands attention and skill. When I'm at the office, I don't have the time, so instead I make exceptional coffee in minutes as French press or even a syphon brewer. As a Christmas gift to myself, I got a Tokio syphon brewer. Vacation is over, so I took it to the office. Cleaning it is a bit of a chore since I have to truck it to the breakroom, but the coffee preparation itself requires barely two minutes of my active attention.

French press, syphon brewer, Aeropress... any of these can easily produce memorable coffee with no fuss, no muss. When you're not pressed for time (e.g., on the weekends), make yourself an exceptional espresso or find a cafe that makes them.

Life is too short to drink mediocre espresso.

Anthony,
Being the former owner of a superauto and now owner of semi-automatic machine (single boiler similar to Rancilio Silvia mentioned on this thread), I can say with personal experience you are short-changing yourself going with any home superauto.

I tried (in same Williams Sonoma store) Jura S9, Saeco Incanto Sirius, Nespresso pods and other super autos. The super autos were using the same bean. I ended up with the Saeco Incanto Sirius. At that time wife did not allow semi-auto or volumetric machine due to "hassle" (grind, dose, tamp etc). Even with separate burr grinder and fresh roasted beans feeding the super-auto via its bypass doser, the product in the cup was nowhere near cafes (e.g. Intelligentsia on Broadway St. in Chicago). So I gave up on the superauto and home espresso until I got my semi-auto machine last month.

As for convenience: I will not get into comparisons but I will be bold enough and confident enough to say that likely there are many readers of this forum are equally if not more busy than you are in the AM. I can make one double espresso and one cappuccino for the Mrs. in ~13 min with cleanup. I hope to get this down to ~7min with better efficiency (remember I've only had machine for 1 month). Key tip mentioned earlier on this thread is to have machine on timer (so that it is pre-heated and ready to go when you get to the machine).

Another tip not mentioned so far on this tread, if you do decide on grinder, then try to find one used. But do buy replacement burrs (should not cost >$75).

The only super-auto that gave me good espresso was a Franke (which per cafe owner was ~$15K). The superauto you mentioned will just give you poor product. My experience with the S9 (more expensive machine) was such. Try same bean and same quality burr grinder - one from the Jura and one from a semi-automatic like from Rancilio Silvia (using good technique). The semi-auto will win. If you love espresso and coffee as much as you say, then do not short change yourself: get a semi-auto and quality burr grinder.

For regular coffee, why not French press: cheap, simple, and IMO best tasting coffee brew method.

This whole process is incredible complicated and I feel like a idiot but at least I am a little bit more informed to my potential buying decision than I was before due to you all that have contributed. I think that enough of you have stated that super-autos suck enough not to warrant the buying of them. Now with that in mind and me being so damn indecisive I have hopefully decided on purchasing a semi-auto machine because one reason and one reason only, quality! I have a superb carpet cleaning company here where I live and I give 100% everyday so why am I going to live with mediocrity in my coffee and soon found love of espresso? Can anyone recommend a good website that sells burr grinders? I know that I'll do my homework on Craigslist and whatnot but are there website out there that specialize in selling used espresso equipment?

Where do I start with a budget of $300 for a burr grinder and $400 to $500 for a semi-auto? Can someone give me some models as there are an incredible amount out there?



Is there anyone in the Minneapolis area that could help us make this decision a little easier with some expertise? Does anyone know of anyone that would be willing to help my wife and I test semi-auto machines at Sur La Table or at the William and Sonoma?

Dan, mediocrity is probably better than most coffee served. You should be able to get "decent" coffee form a superauto if you use top notch, fresh beans, clean the machine frequently and use good water. I would consider one for my office, as I could not be making espresso there. Then again, I don't think my staff would like to see me more caffeinated that I already am.

Hi Anthony, I think you should try the Nespresso system and decide for yourself. It is a very successful system with a high level of customer satisfaction. And it is espresso - ground coffee brewed at 9 bars pressure.
Just know that when you go for this system you will be buying their coffee, 17 different blends are available.
(Disclosure - I work for one of the companies that sells Nespresso, and other machines)

In order to check out Nespresso or the Super Auto's at SLT or Williams-Sonoma, I would simply call ahead and ask who at the store is knowledgeable about the machines, and find out when they work.

If you can find someone in the area who will demo a semi-automatic machine then certainly check that out as well. Unfortunately they are relatively rare.

Trust your own taste buds and take your time. You may or may not like the espresso each machine produces, but I think it's best to discover for that for yourself. Also, if milk based drinks are a factor, be sure to have the salesperson demo the milk heating/frothing for each machine.

Regarding warranty, both SLT and WS have lifetime warranty on these products.