Lost in a sea of espresso buying advice

by **rennix** on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:07 pm

So one of these days in the nearish future I will be buying a new setup. I'm pretty sure I want a Baratza Vario but with machines I'm torn. DB? HX? Lever machine?

What I've come up with so far:

Domobar Junior
Andreja Premium
Lever machine?

I want something I will be keeping for a some time, so I like the reservoir machines.

I like the idea of a machine without so many things to break, and are completely manual, so I'm somewhat drawn to lever machines.

The HX vs. DB thing confuses me. I don't understand the need to froth and make espresso at the same time, since people have a hard enough time getting one right. If I'm making frothed milk I don't care if I have to wait a minute or two, but I like the idea of a no burn wand. I hate cleaning crusted on residue.

I've also found both the Domobar JR and the Andreja Premium PIDed on eBay. I have read advantages to this on these forums.

I won't go over $1850 for a machine.

I'm looking for direction here.

by **another_jim** on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:30 pm

rennix wrote:The HX vs. DB thing confuses me. I don't understand the need to froth and make espresso at the same time, since people have a hard enough time getting one right.

Ignorance and incompetence always result in an outstanding buying decision. The trouble is that people learn, and then the clarity of knowing nothing fades away. But it's only an espresso machine, not a tattoo; so finding out you got it wrong won't be too painful.

by **rennix** on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:38 pm

Edit: Maybe we're lost here. Should I clarify first?

It seems that a HX allows better steam power but affects temp.

It seems that a DB machine would prevent temp changes, but has less powerful steam? Also, wouldn't a double PIDed DB have better control than flushing a HX?

by HB on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:48 pm

The HX vs. double boiler debate comes up a lot. To save myself some typing, I'll lift my prior response from previously replies to this question:

HB wrote:The HX versus double boiler debate comes up regularly; below is a sample of the more thorough discussions of the topic:

HX vs DB
HX vs double boiler in the real world
The Worst Thing about HX Machines/Heat Exchangers are evil
Why are HX espresso machines so popular?
Some thoughts on heat exchanger vs. double boiler espresso machines
For me, the ease with which an espresso machine automatically manages brew temperature isn't a key criteria. The stick shift versus automatic analogy applies, i.e., if I were searching for my ultimate driving experience, I would not limit myself to cars equipped with automatic transmission. However, if I were shopping for my wife, I would eliminate any without it.

If you're convinced that exact brew temperature control is key to exceptional espresso, don't get an HX espresso machine. I personally don't mind the extra steps / intuition they require because I like the flexibility of on-the-fly temperature adjustments and brew temperature profile manipulation (i.e., with practice, you can produce flat or "humped" profiles on demand with certain limits). If that isn't your thing, the simplicity of a dedicated brew boiler with PID control cannot be beat.

by **rennix** on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:51 pm

Thanks, that does help my worries with the HX.

Any rec's for machines to peruse? I really like the Andreja Premium but the Domobar JR is good and cheaper, too.

$1369 HX for JR
$1695 for Andreja

Perhaps the QM Anita is a better comparison at $1450

by HB on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:56 pm

The Quickmill Andreja is certainly a fine choice and it's reviewed on this site if you wish to learn more. That said, I'm reminded of this point from the Guidelines for productive online discussion:

Help raise the discussion level. Use the how tos, resources, FAQs, search and search tips. "Newbie" questions are welcome, but they are more likely to receive thoughtful replies if some initial research is done beforehand.

To get you started and to save myself even more typing, I will repeat some general recommendations I wrote from another thread:

HB wrote:I know you've been slogging through a lot of reading, but if you want make an informed decision, I recommend you soldier on. To make your reading assignment less burdensome, I'll pick what I think cover the spectrum of choices and offer a soundbite for each:

Vibiemme Domobar Super - big steamer, easier temperature control among HX espresso machines, solid construction; deeper footprint than most in its class.

Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica - showpiece design and construction, demands eclectic usage, and yet easy to manage temperature control; an absolute dream steamer.

Quickmill Vetrano - plumbed in rotary model similar to the Andreja Premium; super quiet, requires attention to temperature control (unless you install Eric's E61 thermometer adapter), solid steamer.

Expobar Brewtus III - no-brainer temperature control, slower steaming than most E61 HX espresso machines; materials and workmanship are mid-grade.

La Spaziale Vivaldi II - this double boiler espresso machine has garnered many admirers for its no-brainer temperature control; quiet rotary pump and solid construction, powerful and easy steaming. It's wide, but shallower than most home espresso machines.
If the list above hasn't exhausted you, the Ponte Vecchio Lusso is among the contenders that deserves consideration as an easy to master espresso machine for home baristas.

Another espresso machine that's getting more and more recommendations these days as a price performer is the Bezzera BZ07. You'll have to search the forums for specifics as there is not a formal review on this site. Finally, for general recommendations, see Mark's How to Buy an Espresso Machine.

by **rennix** on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:06 pm

I'm no stranger to forums, and have actually been through this before on here (sigh). Two days ago I didn't know the difference between a HX or a DB, or what an E61 was. I've been doing a ton of reading. Direction is key when you are in a library.

by HB on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:49 pm

I understand it's a lot of information to absorb. How you approach this purchase decision is up to you. You can learn why choice X is the best for you, or you can describe what your usage will be and budget, then ask for recommendations that you accept on good faith without understanding the nitty-gritty reasons behind the selection. Of the recommendations I've made so far, there are no "bad" choices, only tradeoffs.

by **rennix** on Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:05 pm

I prefer to know why x over y. Spending that much and not knowing seems odd. If I wanted someone to tell me I wouldn't have already narrowed it down this far. Problem with this forum is that people assume you know absolutely nothing unless you type it out.

I want something smaller than the VBM Super, Vetrano has plumb in only so I tossed that out. Semiautomatica is interesting but have seen lots of threads about repairs (are they reliable?).

by **tekomino** on Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:09 pm

Jason, everything you need under the sun, well almost, is here. Why one machine over another? It comes down to how are you going to use them and this has been covered thousands of times already. If you browse buying advice forum you'll find it.


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