As a pro barista and aspiring someday roaster/entrepreneur, I'm gunning for a top-notch set-up in my home on which to sample my goods as I develop my skills with the roaster. My first step into the realm of excellence has been a Caravel lever machine, which is said to pull a "reference shot," and so far I must say I agree -- results from that simple beauty are outstanding. And yet now I feel like I should have a pump machine that's also up to a certain standard to round out my home espresso bar... But I just ain't got the dough.

So, for better or for worse, I'm searching for serviceable used machinery. Baseline features: ~110V, HX, capacious pourover, commercial group, decently quick heat-up time, superior nearly-pro steam (I'm a straight shot drinker, but I'd like to be able to run the gamut with ease, for tasting purposes, for guests, for fun). A reliable stock PID or relative ease of PID-hackery is pretty key. Pressure gauge would be appreciated. Adjustable OPV (or the ability to install one) would be nice, but not essential for me at this point. Some kind of "low reservoir water" notification would be appreciated. Dedicated hot water spout not necessary.

Looks-wise I'm not too picky. Sparkling steel & chrome in certain light can strike me as a little ostentatious, and I don't really need to be reminded of just how much I'm dropping on this thing at a time when fiscal prudence really ought to be the order of the day. But... I do like nifty lever-actuators and pronounced black steam knobs.

The ultimate deciding factor, however, is that I'm trying to keep things under $500, shipped and all. I found a Livia locally that the guy would've parted with for $500, but in my initial wave of search I still held out hope of going cheaper, and there was something boxy and boring-looking about the Livia and didn't like the white programmable buttons, which are quite unnecessary. Eventually I started gravitating towards an NS Oscar, which lacks visible gauges and "low water" protection, but whose plastic case, proprietary group and absence of hot-water-spout seem like money-saving measures I can appreciate. Aside perhaps from universality, what does an e61 really have over any other pro-caliber proprietary group, anyway? And I can't help but think that the Oscar's plastic case would be easier to drill through if I wanted to install and mount a PID. I'm not into its cheap-o steam knob or soft buttons, but overall it looks like the kind of thing that might fly under the radar of my more fiscally-responsible partner, who probably wouldn't appreciate me spending much at all, given that the Saeco Via Venezia still works as well as can be expected. The Oscar seems like it could take its place, appearance-wise, without causing too much of a stir. And for some reason I find it just looks like more fun than the Livia.

At any rate, it seems like an Oscar is also the only thing I could even begin to dream about finding (i.e. winning on eBay) for under $500, save for a Craigslist 1-group cafe liquidation fixer-upper or estate sale treasure. The more I think about it, though, the better the Livia seems to stack up feature-wise.

And so, as I dry my eyes out day and night, searching and re-searching ebay and craigslist, does anyone here en la Casa HB have any advice? I mean, the beauty of machines of a certain caliber is that they are all servicable, refurbishable, basically immortal, given a handful of screwdrivers and wrenches and online sources for parts... no? Maybe I should write to that guy with the Livia again before it's too late...

you are going to be pretty limited on that budget for what you are looking for. Nuova Simonelli Oscar, Ellimatic (older oscar), Elli, Pasquini Livia, Bezzera BZ02. If you just drink espresso with the occasional milk drink, you may consider a single boiler. Look for a Quickmill Alexia or Isomac Amica http://www.ebay.com/itm/Isomac-AMICA-Es...936wt_1190 Adding a PID would make these machines awesome for your espresso. You may also consider a Silvia to save a bit more. I know they get a bad wrap, but if you are already planning to PID your machine, it may not be a bad option. It's a decent machine when it has a PID and properly adjusted OPV. If you go with an HX, you don't need a PID. If you can compromise the group size, you might also consider an Olympia Maximatic/Coffex/Pasquini Livietta. One can often be had for around 500. The only other option I can think of is to just keep an eye out for a single group commercial machine like cimbali/pasquini junior/m20/m21 or astoria or la san marco, but these are larger and will have a longer heat up time. At your budget, more than likely, you will have to compromise on something.

jonny wrote: If you can compromise the group size, you might also consider an Olympia Maximatic/Coffex/Pasquini Livietta. One can often be had for around 500.

I was going to suggest this one too. They pop up on ebay every so often, and since they are kind of old and unassuming looking they sometimes get listed on Craigslist way below value. I don't have personal experience but it is pretty much a Cremina with a pump instead of a lever, so the quality should be excellent and restoration shouldn't be too hard either.

I assume you already have your eye on the coffeegeek bst forum as well. That is an excellent place to find a used machine and often for great prices.

I hadn't thought about the longer heat-up time on commercial single-groups. That's a good point. I also had pretty much skipped over the idea of a dual-use single boiler, mainly because I'm just really fascinated by HX design, but also because I assume they make for overall better, more consistent machines. The benefit of the PID I thought was not only for consistency, but for adjustability. A HX machine may naturally excel in its temp stability, but what of adjustability? I realize now I haven't looked into it very closely, but I thought with digital PID's you just hit the buttons to set the temp. Without a PID, if I want to pull at higher temps for SO's than for blends on a HX or any other machine, wouldn't I have to break out the tools, open it up and tweak a buried thermostat? Alternatively if it came down to waiting certain lengths after running certain amounts through the group, I mean, that's not terribly precise, and it's the same as temp-surfing, which negates a lot of the beauty of the HX, no?

The Alexia is certainly compelling, though I don't think I'll find one I can afford. I've saved that Amica into my ebay watch list; seems like the creme of the crop of single boilers. I've also kept a lookout for Expobar Office Levers. More and more, though, it seems like I should jump on the local Livia. The Silvia -- I just can't do it. It may be the best in its class, but I know I'd have upgrade-itus with a Silvia before too long. It just doesn't strike me as a "keep forever" kind of machine, and right now I've got this itch to skip the stepping stones and shoot as high as possible -- knowing full well that I might just have to let this craze blow over and wait either for lightning to strike or for the coffers to deepen.

Re: CG BST forum -- I do keep a pretty steady eye on it, although I feel like sometimes it's the first place a CG'er would go to find educated buyers that know the full value of the thing being sold, and so they can get top dollar (as opposed to CL or eBay, where after a while people will just take what they can get). I do like the friendliness and transparency of the people on CG though.

On a PID'd single boiler like the alexia or amica, I don't see you having any trouble with pulling shot after shot. Their boilers are big enough that I wouldn't think that they'd drop between shots especially with the PID kicking with every 1 degree change. I don't have experience with this though. The bonus of a PID is the precise adjustability but the main thing is how they keep the temperature rock solid, in theory. On a heat exchanger machine the HX is a tube sitting in the steam boiler (250 degrees F). After a while, the water in the HX will equilibrate with that temperature. This is why, in general, it must be flushed before each shot. Since the HX is cooling down as you flush hot water out and bring cold water in, the starting temperature of your shot is "set" by how much water you flush. Less flush equals higher brew temp, longer flush equals lower brew temp. Without thermometry instruments (like the erics adapter for e-61 machines), you will never know exact numbers on your brewing temperature for an HX since it cannot be controlled digitally. You go by experience (knowing how long to flush to get certain "temperatures") and adjusting by taste. So long story short, basically a PID cannot control the brew temperature in a heat exchanger setup.

At the risk of letting the cat out of the bag, a used Maximatic is a fantastic machine. I have a 49mm along with my Cremina and can attest to both the build quality and user serviceability. There is some hubbub about the Fluid-O-Tech pump (OEM) vs. Ulka E5 pumps, but we'll save that for another thread.

Based on the OP's requirements of a commercial group, that excludes the Maxi. That aside, I use the Maxi as my pump machine for reviews and testing. It's a nice counterpart to the Cremina, and flexible enough for me to explore different SOs and blends. Comparing these to commercial machines, however, is a stretch to say the least.

Thanks everybody for your insights -- I'm so glad I posted this query. Without having thought it through I was assuming that a HX machine would be the ultimate, but if maximum shot-temp precision & control is what I'm really going for, maybe I don't really want a HX?

I know that it's not necessary to nail things down to a specific degree in order to pull a fantastic shot. I just like knowing as much as I can. Would I be right in thinking that the HX is esteemed because it virtually guarantees temp consistency without the need for a PID, but if you're willing to dig in and wire up a PID on a PID-friendly non-HX boiler then you get equal if not superior consistency as well as transparency and control? (Also -- isn't the Alexia a HX machine?) The thing about dual-purpose single boilers like the Amica, though, is that you can't steam & pull at the same time, right?

So, maybe what I really want is a dual thermo-block deal like the Livietta. Sherman -- I admire your brand loyalty. Must be an attractive duo on the counter. Is your Maximatic a HX machine? I'm not adamant about commercial sizing on the group, although I do consider it a plus, if only because I use commercial equipment at work and I know & enjoy the weight and feel of it. It's interesting that there tend to be so many used Livias available and yet not many Liviettas (based mostly on eBay monitoring). I wonder if I should take that as an indication of something -- although it could cut both ways (i.e. is Livietta that much more of a keeper, or is Livia just more popular overall?)

... ... Dang. As I wrote this I came back in touch with the Livia guy and there turns out to be some sweet extras. It's starting to seem like a deal I'd be foolish to pass up. After all these machinations -- here I am again. Would it be futile to try to dangle a thermocouple for readings in the water under the group, loading & pulling as soon as I see what I want?