Hey maybe the lever is a traditional machine. Hmmmm...
Currently saving to get a machine that will knock me out with flavorful goodness. Do I want to save $2200 and get the Izzo Alex Duetto II....or save around $1000 and get a used Olympic Cremina or Elektra Micro Casa?

In any case I will purchase in next few months. Let me further explain. I took everyone's advice and bought a good grinder first, the Baratza Vario. Presently pairing it with a Hamilton Beach Pro. Absolutely hit or miss as to whether the resulting espresso is drinkable(no fault of the Vario). Temp varies too much. Downloaded all Sammich's photo's on PID'ing it but cant force myself to do it. He did a great job but me???

I'm now ready to move up. People on this site are fabulous with advice.
One last note. I'm retired and love to experiment with different coffees in the roasting process. Take a similar attitude when it comes to preparing espresso. Don't mind the labor and clean-up of a lever....but which is better? A cup of coffee from an Izzo/La Spaziale, etc or one from a Cremina/Elektra Micro Casa all factors being equal? Say a pro barista operating each?
Thanks, gene

Maybe get one of each?

Cremina is nice machine, expensive though and used ones are gamble. I've been told that Cremina group wears so depending on how many shots have been through it you might need completely new group so getting it used is always a gamble. Temperature wise, they will overheat after 2-3 shots and you have to cool them down with wet towel. Not a problem, but something you need to know. They also take lot of practice to make good shots consistently since you control brew pressure through lever. Many people love them.

Micro Casa is great machine too, but temperature issues are the same as with Cremina. Costs much less though and making good shots with it is much easier since spring lever provides same constant pressure profile every time. Many people love these too

I have not had Izzo but it is standard E61 group and if you get one with PID I think it is very nice machine.

La Spaziale has also devoted following and I like that Chris Coffee offers 2 years warranty on them which speaks volumes on quality of the machine. If I were choosing between these options Id take La Spaziale and add Ponte Vecchio Lusso later as second machine

They are all capable of producing good shots. I think that Izzo and La Spaziale will have better consistency due to PID and they will allow you to serve a party easily. I think they would also allow you to explore wider range of tastes.

I use La Spaziale Vivaldi and two small home levers. When I had only Vivaldi, after half of year I started wanting a lever. But then with your asttitude of experimentation and searching, exploring coffees etc. I don't think you will be satisfied just with a lever, be it Cremina or Caravel or any other - unless you get a commercial lever.
Semicommercial machine (I mean any of the pumps here - upper then Silvia class) offers more reliability and more space of exploration of just the coffee, specially in the beginning when you have to get to know all about the brewing, preparation, all the details, all the experience is to be get - then if you have a home lever, it's like you had a glasses or in other words a specific focus. I don't say limitation because in real after you know your machine, there's quite no limitation yet there's a profile; but then in the beginning a home lever is definitely not transparent. And there's more to learn right from the beginning with a lever, too.
So if you can afford it, go for a pump machine. Yet which one - then I don't know. Are you going to make a lot of milk drinks? if no, you could get a single boiler, if yes - you know already... have to decide on one piece of the universe...

tekomino wrote:Maybe get one of each?

+1

tekomino wrote:Maybe get one of each?

Agree, if your funds allow.

You don't say what you drink or how many you make a day. Also would be helpful if you mentioned how you like your espresso...do you crave crema or prefer lighter more floral blends?

tekomino wrote:Cremina is nice machine, expensive though and used ones are gamble. I've been told that Cremina group wears so depending on how many shots have been through it you might need completely new group so getting it used is always a gamble.

Yep, the new ones are expensive @ $3.3K. Your best option is to get a fully refurbed model from Orphan Espresso. Having purchased mine from them I can tell you the work is absolutely first class, so there will be no doubt that a machine purchased through them will last you a very long time and save you a good $2,000!

tekomino wrote:Temperature wise, they will overheat after 2-3 shots and you have to cool them down with wet towel. Not a problem, but something you need to know.

I think Tekomino is confusing the Cremina with a La Pavoni. Owned two Gaggia Factories (re-badged La Pavoni Pros), one with the standard nylon piston, the other with a brass, and these will overheat after 2-3 shots due to a tiny grouphead being attached straight to the boiler. The Cremina has a much larger grouphead that is NOT mounted to the boiler, therefore it does not overheat as quickly. Unless your P-Stat is set very high you should be able to pull about 5 shots before seeing signs of overheating that would require the cool towel to tame.

tekomino wrote:They also take lot of practice to make good shots consistently since you control brew pressure through lever.

This is a HUGE exaggeration! I have taught people with absolutley no experience whatsoever beforehand to pull shots on my levers. Within 3 shots they are pulling nice shots; pulling really good shots by the 5th or so try. It's not hard.

tekomino wrote:Micro Casa is great machine too, but temperature issues are the same as with Cremina.

While I don't own a MicroCasa I have used one. I never pulled many shots on it, but like the Cremina, the grouphead is much larger than a La Pavoni though it's mounted directly to the boiler. I'd guess that overheating would lie in-between that of a La Pavoni and a Cremina. This should not be a big deal unless you are looking at making more than a few back-to-back shots.

Just to be clear, levers are turn on, pull a shot when ready (~10 minutes from a cold start), turn off machines. If you want to pull more shots in an hour, turn it back on. It'll be ready in just a few minutes. Unlike a HX/DB, you do not leave it on for long periods of time.

tekomino wrote:Costs much less though and making good shots with it is much easier since spring lever provides same constant pressure profile every time.

Spring levers take away the guess work in applying pressure to extract the coffee as the spring will deliver in the neighborhood of about 6 bar pressure, dwindling down as the lever gets near the end of the pull. They are more consistent, especially for a first-time user, and allow you to steam milk (if that's your thing) while the spring extracts the shot. However, if you want heavy crema, you'd be better off with a manual lever - Cremina, La Pavoni.

Both the Cremina and Elektra are finely made machines, but if you want portability, get a La Pavoni - smaller and lighter and is capable of very good shots. While some people will say a Cremina will pull superior shots to a La Pavoni, I have to say I've pulled equal shots on both, so bang for the buck, a nice used La Pav is hard to beat.

Now to the one question, which produces a better shot, an E-61 or lever. E-61 will be more consistent, but both will produce a mighy fine shot. When paired with a Vario (I have one too), the E-61's portafilter fits the portafilter holder better. Minor point, but one to mention. You'll be happy with either.

Probably more gabbing than you wanted, so sorry for the extenisve reply.

+1 on what Merle said.

If you really like Ethiopian single origins, for example, you may find the Elektra shots very seductive. But they are lighter in body and crema than the other machines. That's because - apart from anything else - the spring exerts less than pressure than you can apply on the Cremina or the pump applies for you on the Duetto.

The Cremina will offer you the greatest versatility since you can alter the pressure profile more than the others. Both the Cremina and Elektra offer more leeway for varying the preinfusion.

The post 2002 Creminas offer superior shot-after-shot thermal stability and can be left on all day. Body and crema are both fuller than the Elektra and though you can increase the flavour separation at the expense of the former by tailing off the pressure as you pull your shot, it will never quite approach the Elektra in that respect.

The Alex Duetto is a very fine machine and will be more plug and play than the levers, certainly offering greater thermal stability if you entertain many espresso-loving guests - even more if they love capuccinos. On the other hand it won't offer the same ability to vary preinfusion or pressure.

So a word or two about your preferences and likely usage will make it easier for posters to offer helpful advice.

Cheers

Mike

I'm blown away by the replies above. I have studied every single machine above and read all the revues. Nothing as succinct and precise as what you folks have taught me have come out of these reviews.

I have been all over Ebay and Craigslist past six months looking and bidding on every Cremina and Elektra MC offered. Advice about Creminas brew group maybe having to be rebuilt scares me. Now I am prob going to go for a used La Pav Europiccola or? as a 2nd machine and something like the La Spaziale as primary....prob have to consider buying the latter new.

My usage? No large parties, prob 8-10 shots per day. I have a son who will be driving thru here from Texas on his way to a new job on the East coast. He is going to a very odd shaped building. ha. He just got back from two tours of Iraq and learned to love espresso machine stationed in the base office these past two years. Now he can visit us every few weeks for next three years. He loves espresso and Americanos. My wife loves french press and our Aeropress but has never sampled the cappuccinos I'm capable of. Just wait. Me, espresso, latte, cappuccino, love them all.
Decent foam would be a requirement...ability to coax thick crema not at top of wish list necessarily.

Coffee: I just ordered 20 pounds of a terrific Kenya. Very bright but I only plan to take it to a C+ roast to bring out the fruits, subtleties-at the expense of chocolate. My tastes have really changed these past two years from dark to light as my roasting skills have improved.

Thanks everyone, would like to hear more. You are great! I'll try to pay you back!
gene

What I have done is get a pump E61 machine, and supplement with small lever machines just for fun and experimentation. I just finished rebuilding a La Peppina for a total cost of about $200. You can have the best of both worlds without breaking the bank.

usage? No large parties, prob 8-10 shots per day.

That's the key - usage and how -

How will this break down?

four or five doubles? espresso's or cappas?

Will it be for several hours in the morning? double shots close together? or spread thru-out the day?

I have an 87 Cremina, and a 2003 Cremina (upgraded to current production) and a vivaldi S1 V2.

Unfortunately, I have had to curtail my consumption - and also due to issues with straight doubles in my stomach - I now do cappas.

I'm quite happy with what I have - On the occasions I have guests, or anticipate someone coming by - I use the vivaldi S1 V2.

But just for my wife and I, Cremina is my preference. You can taste the difference even in a cap.

My normal usage - one double cap for me - two for the wife.

Wish to hell, I could do 8 or ten a day, for sure

I mostly french press or Aeropress for my wife unless my son comes by or the VISTA's show up from our non-profit group. We work via our lab cleaning up our watersheds up here in the mountains. Also work with Ninth Grades in our county teaching units of Earth Science. We are at forf.weebly.com(just Google).

With something like a Cremina would do at least 8-10 cappuccinos per day scattered over the course of the day. Wife loves milk drinks.

When we visit SC I go straight to the Fresh Market in Greenville. Love to sample coffee of the day, peruse their coffee barrels and see if any of their roasts approach mine. Ha
Just across the parking lot the coffee shop there has killer espresso. He has a LaMarzocco and gets his coffee fresh from Counter Culture. Some of his baristas really rock.
I can't touch their quality with a stock Hamilton Beach Pro!

I appreciate the info also from SwingT....Hope he answers my email.
gene