First of all, have spent some time looking around here and some of the other sites around... have a couple of questions for the board...

Machines:
Le'lit PL041TQE (Natively PID'd, 599/648 from 1st Line)
Gaggia Classic (~400) + PID kit (~150ish)

Grinders:
Le'lit PL53
Barazta Vario
(also open to other ideas, know how important the grinder is to the process)

Other things to consider:
I mostly drink lattes right now, but would like to move back to espressos (no good options in the area currently)

I know i want/need a PID...assuming that it ends up being about 550 for the PID'd Gaggia and about 600 for the Le'lit..is there really going to be a large difference between the two machines? Is there really going to be much of any difference between the two? I am perfectly ok with paying the extra 50ish for he convenience of not having to install it myself...assuming that difference is not huge.

If it matters at all, i can pick up the gaggia classic and the vario for ~900 (plus PID) at W.L.L vs about 860 for the le'lit combo...

I am truly open to just about anything or any suggestions that people have for me...either about these machines or about others i may not have even considered yet!

Also worth considering that i do not *have* to get this asap, but would like to get it by/before June...

Thanks for your time,
John

Of the machines you mention, the only one I have extensive experience with is the Baratza. There is considerable discussion of it here; I am pleased with mine; others of much more notable pedigree are as well; if it does fall down it is when it is compared to hefty commercial machines (see Jim Schulman's 'second look' post where even that is not necessarily true). Complaints include drift in grind settings and a potentially fragile burr-set. At that price point, the Vario is the only one I would consider. When I evaluated grinders up to quadruple its cost, I got the Vario - mainly from a perspective of Usability in a home setting.

I am curious why you feel PID is so critical at this price point. In that general range, the machine that is most often discussed as the gold standard is the Rancilio Silvia. When I bought a replacement as a gift for relatives recently, it was that one. There are PID Silvias available, but I am not sure what the price would be (very easy to find out though).

mb514 wrote:I am curious why you feel PID is so critical at this price point. In that general range, the machine that is most often discussed as the gold standard is the Rancilio Silvia. When I bought a replacement as a gift for relatives recently, it was that one. There are PID Silvias available, but I am not sure what the price would be (very easy to find out though).

at the most granular level, because it is one less variable which can impact my search for a "great shot" (and yes, i am aware of the 4 M's) -- the flip side is that i know it is going to drive me crazy not being able to know where the temp is...does that make sense?

Fair enough. However, I wonder if it is a good tradeoff to get a potentially lesser machine in exchange for PID. At that price point, the cost of the PID may be the difference in the class of the machine. Sacrificing quality of build and thermal stability may prove counterproductive. I have used the class of Gaggia you mention and, although a good starter machine, it seems that one could outgrow it quickly. The Silvia seems to have a legendary status and is certainly worth some serious research in my opinion.

I otherwise know very little about the Le'lit PL041TQE. I have not come across any extensive discussion of their machines as a whole. As it is so difficult to objectively compare machines, I tend to look for the ones what make the most waves as a starting point for research.

fwiw, the Le'lit PL041 has an 8.89 rating (out of 16 reviews) on coffee geek vs an 8.6 w/ 213 reviews for the Silvia and 8.1 w/ 72 reviews for the Classic...

cost wise it is about:
~650 for a silvia + 210 for an Auber PID kit (total: 760ish)
~400 for a classic + 150 for an Auber PID kit (total: 550ish)
650 for a Le'Lit PL041 with PID already installed

essentially i am pretty sure i am not going to pay 750ish (getting too close to the next level of machine) for an intro machine...

meanwhile, im not sure if there is really going to be THAT much difference between the quality of the machine of the Le'Lit and the Classic...hence my (basic) issue...
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edit: thought i included this link from HB about issues w/ the PL041

After all of that, I think the Lelit is a good machine considering its price. On a scale of bad --> acceptable --> good --> great - the Lelit will make acceptable espresso most of the time and good espresso sometimes. But don't expect anything more than that.

the next question it looks like is going to be how possible it is to make consistently good/great espresso (as opposed to acceptable/good) on a gaggia...

I would rank the Gaggia and Le'lit pretty closely, just based on specs. The advantage to the Le'lit is that you don't have to install the PID yourself, and it comes with a real steam wand. You can replace the Gaggia's plastic steam do-dad (which is 1 step up from junk) with a real wand off a Silvia, but it's more stuff to buy and install yourself.

I think the PID is worthwhile, it's not going to keep the brew temp stable, both boilers are too small for that, but it will let you be consistent, which is very important. If nothing else, it gets rid of the cheap thermostat Gaggia uses, which has a huge deadband.

The only real downside I can think of to the Le'lit is that it uses a 57mm basket, so it'll be a little more difficult to find tamper and new baskets - and if you ever buy a new machine you'll probably need to buy new accessories.

For the grinders, I think most people would rate the Vario higher than the Le'lit, both for grind quality and usability. I bought the Le'lit grinder when it first came out, and for the price it's excellent, but if the Vario had been available, I would've paid the extra for that.

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Edit: Just saw your question about the chances for acceptable/good/great espresso on both machines. From my experience with the Gaggia it's definitely in the acceptable to good range. The secret to getting some great espresso out of it is finding a blend that will work well with the machine, which probably means something that's pretty forgiving temprature wise. I had great results with both Ambrosia and Dolce blends, and expect they'd work just as well with the Le'lit.

@trlstanc - totally forgot the wand part above...knew that

to me adding the PID and getting the consistency is what is important...again - one less thing to worry about in the (neverending) search for good espresso...haha

the other upside to going with a gaggia (even though i would have to do the legwork to add the PID) is the community on yahoo that Tex runs...

so (pretty much) last question about this...is there any particular reason NOT to go with the le'lit combo?

I would scrounge up the extra money to get the Vario over the PL53. I dug my PL53 out and have been using it for the past 2 weeks since I needed a second grinder set up. It is a very good grinder, but it's so messy and I feel like it wastes a lot of coffee. The grounds tray always has a pile on it. For the extra money you are getting a lot more with the Vario, and getting that now will likely save you a grinder upgrade later. The PL53 was more appealing at its intro price when many of us bought it.

dang. i was THISCLOSE to jumping on one that was 350+shipping on the coffee geek buy/sell forum...

anywhere else i should look for a used one?