So I've more of less decided upon the Vibiemme as my next machine but I keep reading great things about the V II. Is the saturated group head of the V II really superior? I'm not a fan off the 53 mm baskets or the styling of the V II but if it means more consistency I'll consider it. What do you guys think?

Also, if I end up with the Vibiemme can I make an ericS therm device control the Vibiemme's PID?

Both machines are great machines, and will produce great espresso.

What is key.. is the grinder which you buy to pair it with.

Eric's Grouphead therm is designed for an E-61 HX machine. ALL it does is display temperature. It wont control your PID. YOU control the PID.

The Vivaldi doesn't have a saturated group head. That's a feature of the GS3 and Synesso, not the Spaziale machines. The Vivaldi's group head is just passively heated by conduction from the brew boiler. In other words, it's bolted directly to the brew boiler, and the heat of the boiler radiates naturally into the group. So it's not necessarily any better than an e61 group in terms of temp stability. In fact, I believe it may run a bit cold at the group, and it needs a warming flush to bring it up to full brew temp. But by all accounts it still makes great espresso.

Also, I don't think the Vivaldi has a true PID to control temperature. It's a digital thermostat, but not a "smart" thermostat like a PID that learns as it goes. But regardless, it is supposed to do a good job of controlling the brew temperature, so it's probably a moot point.

As for 53mm groups versus 58mm groups, I've never heard any compelling evidence that one is better than the other. I think they can both get the job done, so it's more a matter of personal preference.

Really, the bottom line is which machine appeals more to you on a gut level. They can both pull great shots, so you need to ask yourself which machine you'd rather see on your counter for the next several years. Personally, I'd be tempted to go with the Vivaldi, mostly because there are so many satisfied users out there and it has a great company behind it (Chris' Coffee), but then again the Vibiemme is supposed to be excellent too. So it's really almost a coin toss. Go with the one that appeals most to you and you can't go wrong.

If you are looking at the S1V2 version of the Vivaldi you also get programmable line pressure pre infusion which no other machine in this price range offers. A 2.5 liter steam boiler as compared to the DD's 1.4 ltr s/b & a .45 liter brew boiler w/800wt heat compared to the 1.4 ltr b/b w/600wt heater of the DD. The Vivaldi allows you to chose between 15A & 20A mode & you can turn the steam boiler off if its not needed.

+1 for JohnB's thoughts.

that big steam boiler would be really nice for powerful continuous steam.

I like the idea of the small brew boiler coupled w/a fairly powerful heating element. The smaller brew boiler would make the turn over rate of fresh water pretty high i would think.


I wouldn't let the 58mm sway me if I were you. Once you get a bottomless for it and a nice tamper I can't imagine you would ever look back.

I also wish my machine were plumbed in - oh how sweet that would be!

fwiw - the lower profile of the vII makes it easier to fit under cabinets and keeps cups warm which is really appealing to me.

JohnB. wrote:If you are looking at the S1V2 version of the Vivaldi you also get programmable line pressure pre infusion which no other machine in this price range offers. A 2.5 liter steam boiler as compared to the DD's 1.4 ltr s/b & a .45 liter brew boiler w/800wt heat compared to the 1.4 ltr b/b w/600wt heater of the DD. The Vivaldi allows you to chose between 15A & 20A mode & you can turn the steam boiler off if its not needed.

I suppose the line pressure is only on the plumbed in version? Does the Vivaldi have an easy upgrade path from tank to plumbed? Thanks for clarifying about the non saturated head. That makes it a bit easier. I have a Vario to pair with.

The Mini is the pourover/vibe pump model & the S1 is the plumbed in/rotary pump version. Line pressure prog. p/i is only on the S1V2 & there is no upgrading to plumbed in from a Mini. You can however run the S1V2 off a bottle/flo jet/accumulator set up until you were able to plumb it in.

The real thing that swing me over to the Vivaldi is having it's own forum.

The grouphead not being saturated is not an issue - you just pull a warming flush.

My understanding is that the PID units have their own imperfections - I'm thinking that the pid is not the temp at the grouphead?

Both are great machines.

The s1V2 has a forum and is sold by Chris - was why I bought and it's been a good decision for me

Do ya' wanna make coffee or gab?
The Vibiemme DoubleDomo, like most e61, is so easy to use, it doesn't require its own forum.

Kidding aside, aesthetics are the only real difference for a home user. An automobile comparison : Decide if you want a 50's era tank with lots of chrome or a 21st century euro box. More sophisticated, but lots of plastic.

cafeIKE wrote:Do ya' wanna make coffee or gab?
The Vibiemme DoubleDomo, like most e61, is so easy to use, it doesn't require its own forum. .

Ouch that is harsh!
The S1 Cafe forum (http://s1cafe.com/index.php) is such a great help to everything coffee but all directed to specifically the Vivaldi. That means that you get a dedicated communication line to people that know what you are talking about and are talking about what you are living. It is a great side benefit.

cafeIKE wrote: Kidding aside, aesthetics are the only real difference for a home user. An automobile comparison : Decide if you want a 50's era tank with lots of chrome or a 21st century euro box. More sophisticated, but lots of plastic.

I will have to agree that for these units that offer very similar features, aethetics become a big element but there are a lot of little usage quirks that should be looked at.

Being such a klutz an exposed E61 is, for me, a burn waiting to happen. The aesthetically pleasing polished stainless box is a maintenance nightmare, if you tend to work close around the machine. Any water splash, oily finger print,... shows. I guess this could be put with aesthetics but to me it is about cleaning.

Really what would be a quirk for someone would not necessarily be for another. So, the only advise that I think may be helpful here is look into your mode of operation and look at the machine and identify which one fits with the way you work better. Some things you can adapt to but some things will always be an annoyance.

There you my 1 canadian cent worth.

cafeIKE wrote:Kidding aside, aesthetics are the only real difference for a home user. An automobile comparison : Decide if you want a 50's era tank with lots of chrome or a 21st century euro box. More sophisticated, but lots of plastic.

I think the much larger steam boiler of the S1V2 makes a difference in a home environment. You've posted numerous times that you left the DD in the office & use your HX at home because the DD can't keep up when you entertain.

Not really an issue for me as I don't think I've ever made more than 2 milk drinks in row in my 2 years of barista-ing. Even if I had to, my routine in slow enough that the boiler would easily recover. The direct plumb Vivaldi is not really in contention for me as I prefer a tank. I think I'm pretty much made up my mind on the DD anyways. Thanks for the input guys!

My suggestion would be to pick.....the one you think looks the best. It is 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.

Damn! I'm back and forth every 5 minutes about this. I would really like to try both machines. I have a friends who recently purchased the DD but I don't know anyone local (vancouver) who owns a VII for me to try.

DD over VII factors..
Looks
58mm (for sake of accessory convenience only)

VII over DD factors..
Size
Location of tank
Easy to clean (plastic)

Hmm, I've also just leaned that there is VII distributor close by in Canada and they have service providers in my area. I think i'm back to the VII now.

Regarding the VII, which of the various available accessories would you guys recommend? What's the deal with the $200 timer?

JohnB. wrote:I think the much larger steam boiler of the S1V2 makes a difference in a home environment. You've posted numerous times that you left the DD in the office & use your HX at home because the DD can't keep up when you entertain.

Just to be clear, it's the brew boiler that 'runs out of gas' with a lot of back to back shots. I have one of the early machines and new production addresses this issue.

nixter wrote:Damn! I'm back and forth every 5 minutes about this.

If we get a bit more coffee in him I bet we could get that down to three at least.

-C

nixter wrote:Easy to clean (plastic)

I had a plastic machine before the Domobar Super and DoubleDomo and it's no easier to keep clean.

The only places regularly touched on the e61 machines are plastic : brew lever, pf handle, steam and hot water knobs.

cafeIKE wrote:Just to be clear, it's the brew boiler that 'runs out of gas' with a lot of back to back shots. I have one of the early machines and new production addresses this issue.

One more for the Vivaldi with that small responsive Vivaldi brew boiler!! Full recovery from a shot in 30-40 seconds max!!

cafeIKE wrote:The only places regularly touched on the e61 machines are plastic : brew lever, pf handle, steam and hot water knobs.

Thats because you will burn your hand on all the other surfaces. I use to wipe the dust off of the Vivaldi's side covers about once a month.

Been spending alot of time on the astronomy boards lately so have gotten behind on HB. Actually they are quite complementary as nothing tastes better for me outside at 2am than a good espresso. Nixter, I own a S1VII and think it is a great machine. I'd also have to say the DD is a great looking machine and I am sure you would produce some super espresso with it. As some of the folks have said here you probably should base your decision on what appeals to most visually and what machine has the best support in your area.

Cheers

Ian