nixter wrote:Regarding the VII, which of the various available accessories would you guys recommend? What's the deal with the $200 timer?

You do not need that extremely overpriced timer! You can switch off the steam boiler at will and even if you shut down the group boiler, it is up and ready in less than 15 minutes. Double boilers are great!!!

As far as accessories, I have three 53 tampers (you only need one but... you know it is...) and a bottomless P/F. That is it! I have been trying to find a triple basket but they are hard to come by.

I had no intention of buying it I'm just curious as to what it's purpose is?

Accessories.. sorry I was more referring to the available options for the VII including the following..

In Tank Water Filter and Softener: Softener Replacement Cartridge
Pre Infusion Chamber
Longer Vivaldi Arm
.9 mm 4 hole tip for No Burn
No Burn Steam Arm

I would guess that the pre infusion chamber would be a good add on?

The La Spaziale Vivaldi is a machine that is meant to always be on. hen plugged in and powered the machine is in a standby mode. To turn on the two boiler heaters you need to push two buttons.

So if you want the machine to turn the boiler on automatically at certain programmed time you need to have the La Spaziale special timer. You cannot (simply) use a timer switch that just cuts off and turn on the electrical power.

I know nothing of the intank water softener but it is small. So you'd have to tinker with it often.
The pre-infusion chamber is an affordable option and most users seem happy with the result. I does not make unanimity though. Some have removed it. I guess that I would recommend it and let your taste decide with usage.
I have installed a No-burn steam arm. I love it and it is plenty long enough for me. There was an issue with the fact that it required a 2x12mm holes tip to maintain the no burn feature but Chris Coffee just came out with a new 4x9mm holes. My new tip is on order!

This is my 2 Canadian cents worth, you can go to

Thanks for the info Whale! So this is the 7 day programmable timer I've heard about? Hmm, well i'm used to having my machine on a timer so that it's ready when I get up in the morning. How long after pushing the two boiler buttons would I have to wait before brewing?

Nixter, I do have the timer as well. Expensive but convenient for me. I have it set to turn the machine on at 6am - 30 minutes before I'm up and off at 8pm last shot of the night unless I'm out observing. On the weekends it stays on till 10pm (late night Americano) and doesn't start up till 7am. I drink coffee all day so keeping it on during the day is important.

Cheers

Ian

I was going to get a timer but got talked out of it. I leave it on 24/7 like alot of VII users. I'll turn the boiler off when I don't think I'll be making milk drinks for a while. This has worked well for me and saved me $200.

Power consumption data is posted here for the different options. http://s1cafe.com/s1v2/S1Power.php

For the most part I make one espresso or latte per day, maybe 2 on the weekends. I think leaving it on 24/7 is not ideal in my case. I hate the thought of having to shell out $200 for a silly timer. I already have programmable electrical socket timer! If things can warm up in 20 min or less then that's ok. If can wake up at 8am, turn on the machine, shower and get ready, then be able to pull a shot by 8:20 or 8:25 I'd be happy.

Can I purchase it after the fact if I change my mind?

nixter wrote:Can I purchase it after the fact if I change my mind?

Yes.

nixter wrote:If things can warm up in 20 min or less then that's ok.

Mine takes less than 20 minutes to warm up!

Hello,

I'm about to pull the trigger on a VBM DD PID Electronic. For what it is worth, after weighing all of the factors, I am on the fence but leaning towards the Mini II. However, my better half strongly prefers the aesthetics of the DD, so the decision has been made....

...almost. I have one lingering concern about the DD. The DD's brew boiler is 1.4L and it has a 600 watt heating element. I will frequently want to pull 5 2oz doubles in a row. Will the DD be able to keep up? If the answer is yes, then I will let my mind rest.

Edit: One more question -- with the VBM Junior Double Boiler having smaller boilers, but the same wattage for the heating elements, would the Junior actually perform better? I guess it would depend on the point at which the better recovery of the smaller boiler (the brew boiler is what I am focused on) outweighs the temperature stability of the larger boiler -- any guesses where that threshold is? 3 doubles in a row? 7 doubles in a row? I'm not that worried about the fact that the Junior only has a thermostat instead of a PID -- I'm planning on using EricS' grouphead thermometer anyway.

Thank you,

Someone like CafeIke can probably confirm this but unless your "between shot time" is minuscule then I'd say you're probably fine.

I too prefer the aesthetics of the DD. I think it's beautiful in fact! I don't feel the same way about the Mini Viv II but I'm leaning towards it for it's technical prowess, smaller footprint, and reservoir location. Like the song says.. "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life..."

mshimao wrote:I have one lingering concern about the DD. The DD's brew boiler is 1.4L and it has a 600 watt heating element. I will frequently want to pull 5 2oz doubles in a row. Will the DD be able to keep up? If the answer is yes, then I will let my mind rest.

FIVE doubles in a row, meaning you plan on making FIVE drinks at a time in your HOUSE? I'm guessing not, unless you have five coffee drinkers in your house, but want to ask.

What is your current setup? I ask because you will be limited by the speed of your grinder. If using something like a Mini, I highly doubt you'll outpace your machine as you'll have a minute or more in-between pulling shots, which is sufficient time for the machine to recover. You'll need almost that to dump the puck, clean the portafilter, grind for the shot, distribute, and tamp.

mshimao wrote:...almost. I have one lingering concern about the DD. The DD's brew boiler is 1.4L and it has a 600 watt heating element. I will frequently want to pull 5 2oz doubles in a row. Will the DD be able to keep up? If the answer is yes, then I will let my mind rest.

The larger the boiler, the longer it takes to heat initially and it cools more slowly. A larger boiler has more volume / per surface area [ D cubed vs D squared ] so a larger boiler loses heat slower relative to the volume of water.

It takes about 9000 calories to heat 120ml [50ml shot + 70ml waste] from 30°C to 105°C. A 600 watt element supplies that much heat in about 60 seconds. Adding a 50% fudge factor for various losses and inefficiencies, a 600w heater still reheats the water in 2 minutes or less.

With the DoubleDomo, the first shot is about 1°F hot relative to 2nd pulled at a short interval. Either use it in a milk drink or flush for about 5 seconds before pulling a straight shot. The 2nd shot is about 1°F hot relative to the 3rd and follow-ons. From 3rd on, the temperature is very well controlled. IIRC, shots 3-7 had less than ½°F variation shot to shot on the Scace. If memory serves, shots 3 to 7 were pulled in about 10 minutes.

Thank you, I'm feeling better about deciding on the VBM Double Domobar Electronic.

My current machine is a PIDed Alexia. No problem with the espresso, but I got careless filling the machine and spilled some water on the internals and the PID no longer works properly. Good excuse to upgrade.

My grinder is a Mini Mazzer doserless.

My normal usage pattern will be 3 shots in a row -- one for my wife's latte and 2 for my capp. But when we have friends over, 5 in a row is common.

I appreciate the help, and hope I didn't get nixter's thread too far OT.

nixter wrote:I too prefer the aesthetics of the DD. I think it's beautiful in fact! I don't feel the same way about the Mini Viv II but I'm leaning towards it for it's technical prowess, smaller footprint, and reservoir location.

Hi Nixter,

It is funny how the little things can matter....the reservoir of the Mini Vivaldi II is one of the things I prefer as well. Much better ergonomics in my opinion, compared to the VBM and all other non-plummed E-61s.

cafeIKE wrote:It takes about 9000 calories to heat 120ml [50ml shot + 70ml waste] from 30°C to 105°C. A 600 watt element supplies that much heat in about 60 seconds. Adding a 50% fudge factor for various losses and inefficiencies, a 600w heater still reheats the water in 2 minutes or less.

This is interesting. I thought about it, and I hope I am not jumping to conclusions inappropriately.

The above makes me think that the Double Domobar will perform better than the Junior. My takeaway from Ian's post is that the 600 watts is what matters -- the energy used to heat the water. Therefore, the rebound for the Junior (which has a smaller boiler) won't necessarily be better. Rather, the rebound is theoretically about the same, but the Double Domobar will have better stability.

When I was deciding which Dual Boiler to go with, both the Brewtus and VBM left the list early on.

The Brewtus left my list for 3 reasons. 1) I PERSONALLY have not had good experiences with WLL in the past. 2) slow steamer. 3) The brew boiler/heating element makes no sense to me.

(Please dont let this turn into a thread about why WLL is a great company. IF you're thrilled with their service, Awesome.)

The Vibiemme, is probably one the nicest looking E-61's. But, one thing I didn't like about the DD, was the PID showed actual boiler temp.. There is no offset so you can see what you're brewing at. FOR ME, this is not what I wanted. Also, the brew boiler/heating element issue again.


The two machines I was stuck on, were the Izzo Duetto II, and the Vivaldi II. I thought those two had the best features.
-The Duetto has a Rotary Pump, but doesn't have to be plumbed. Good for moving the machine around. It's 100% PID controlled, no pressurestat. The drip tray and be drained. It has a large steam boiler, and small brew boiler/high powered element.

-For the Vivaldi.. It was easy. Its been out forever, and many, many satisfied owners. There have been very few large issue's with the machine, outside of normal maintenance, and "growing pains" of a new machine. It's a Rotary/Plumbed machine, and the drip tray can be drained. It's known for having massive steam power, and the Brew Boiler is tiny, with a large heating element. You can buy it as a 20amp, and use it on 15 until you're set up for 20amp(meaning, it's one model, not two).

The actual decision as to which one to get.. was tough. I went back and forth, daily, for months. A deal came up on a VII and I was in a position to buy. I knew it was a solid machine, and the deal was worth it. So I jumped on it. Now? Im 100% sure I made the right choice. Ive got zero complaints.

But, the main reason, why I was looking at these two machines? Simple. Chris sells them. He's 1hr from my home, which makes it easy to go up there when I need too. I like the way Chris runs his operation, and I like that he only sells machines that he thinks are the best out there. Ive personally dealt directly with Chris, and His Team many times, for both small and large purchases, and gotten nothing but the absolute best service I have ever gotten, from any company. That's the reason I stay loyal to Chris'.

JmanEspresso wrote:The Vibiemme, is probably one the nicest looking E-61's. But, one thing I didn't like about the DD, was the PID showed actual boiler temp.. There is no offset so you can see what you're brewing at.

As stated elsewhere, on an e61, if you're not using Eric's adapter, you're working harder than necessary. A couple of weeks ago the weather here in SoCal was quite warm, so per JonR10's request, I documented the group idle temp with Eric's 0.1°F thermometer. No windows open and no heating to stir the air. Machine was on 24/7 for 3 day period.

Air               Group Idle
63°                 192.7°
66°                 193.3°
72°                 194.5°


A PID displaying boiler w offset would have a brew temp error of ~2°F over the course of a day. Using Eric's adapter allows spot on brew temp adjustment regardless of ambient conditions.