Jake, I don't. I'd guess $11-12k or so, but that's just a WAG. Synesso is a pretty cool company, and Mark Barnett is a pretty approachable guy from what I understand. Definitely hit up their site and give them a call if you're curious. Mark will probably tell you that they're looking to release an update to the Cyncra at SCAA in April that will have a slightly revised look and sport some additional electronic features...

As for a 2-group, that's a lot of machine for home, and honestly unless you have a pro barista working it for a party of 50+ guests I really don't see the point at home. It's just going to cost 2x as much to run ($500/year is a conservative guess, I think) and heat your kitchen that much more, and have double the plumbing and an extra boiler to keep maintained. Unless you have a compelling reason for a 2-group machine, I think I'd stick with one-groups.

But if you are thinking 2-groups, then heck, I'd get a 2-group La Marzocco FB80 or GB5 EE. I bet you could get one of those for about $8k if you look around. If you don't want a sweet deal on a stock machine, LM-USA will make you one with individual boilers and pumps (like a Hydra), group lights (they make for a cool effect), and a custom paintjob on the FB80. Lots of options with them, and probably with Synesso too to some extent. Just remember you're out of HB territory to some extent there; your best source of info on toys like that is the manufacturer/importer, or a commercial vendor like EPNW.

boyscout wrote:Jason, "first sign of trouble" is entirely your phrase, I said nothing like it, and few if any people are paying $7,500 for the GS/3. But isn't debate about what I might do a little off the beam in this thread?

Of more interest to people considering the GS/3 vs the Vivaldi and reading this thread is the fact that about 900 people have paid the very high price for the GS/3, and they are not dumping them. They could sell the GS/3 pretty easily, buy something else, and have significant money left over. But keep watching eBay, other for-sale forums, Chris Coffee... there aren't a lot of used GS/3s around.

We'll just have to disagree, because I do think that's significant to someone for whom the price alone is not a major decision factor, and who is considering the GS/3.

Mark -

You were referring to the first run of machines which had issues and in fact the vast majority of people were paying in the $7,500 range for those machines. Perhaps losing a few thousand on a machine (especially given the price drop on new machines) for a few months of use is not a big deal to you. I am guessing it would be a big deal for most of the 900 people who actually bought one.

At the end of the day you are entitled to make whatever arguments you want based upon whatever information you want. I don't want to get into semantics with you. I own one of the machines in question and have pulled 30+ shots on the other. You have never used either machine but decided to make the argument that the fact that people weren't selling their GS3's months after buying them to purchase the Vivaldi suggests...?? I think what is of "more interest to people considering the GS/3 vs the Vivaldi" is input from people who actually own/use the machines.

kzdad wrote:Things I don't like about the GS3:
- It is loud. I am sure if I went through some of the hoops others have gone through- longer hose, dynamat on the drip tray and so on, I could tame some of the noise but out of the box, the machine is noisy and rattles.
- First two points really are part of the thing I like least about the GS3, for the price, it just feels a bit cheap and clunky. Since I am not an expert barista, knowing what I know now, instead of buying the GS3 I would have picked a different machine, put an extra 1K into a grinder and put 1-2K in my pocket and paid for my coffee for a few years. But it would be a tough call.

Regards- Jeremy

My experience reflects yours short of the clogging gicleur. Frankly, even at the discounted price of $4750 that I paid, the GS/3 really feels like an unfinished project. My least favorite aspect of the GS/3 -- its ever-rattling, spill-guaranteed drip-tray -- is one of my favorite features of the Speedster.

flyguyjake wrote:Hi guys,

This is my first post on HB and I'm glad to see all of the participation here. I'd like to ask those of you with first hand knowledge & experience with either the Vivaldi II or the La Marzocco GS/3 which machine you prefer. Both models being plumbed in versions with rotary pumps & PID control. Price not being a deciding factor here or influencing your opinion of the machines.

Now I know that there are many factors involved in achieving the perfect shot & that it's really all a matter of personal taste, however I also know that there is an acknowledged industry standard that has set the bar extremely high for that "God Shot".

Are both machines capable of a God Shot?
I like the line pressure pre-infusion of the VII & wish that the GS/3 offered this on the non-paddle version.

What have you experienced as the pro's & con's of either machine?

I appreciate your guidance, experience & knowledge.

Hi there:

I own a La Spaz. I have experience with the GS3 (tested a prototype when LM was sending beta versions out for testing) and I own a 2-group LM Linea with Pierro group caps and the full on program. The La Spaz is no LM for various reasons, but it has good bang for the buck.

Now.. Enuff fanboy BS!!

You can make pretty good coffee on lots of machines, provided that they are reasonably consistent platforms. But you as a barista have to know how to use the machine properly. I dunno what your experience level is, but since this is your first post and since I see you have a super auto, I'm guessing your emphasis is on the wrong thing - the machinery, when it oughtta be on you, the guy running it. None of the machines you mention will produce a godshot with stale coffee, bad technique. You will need the right coffees, competently roasted and at the right freshness level. Your espresso brewing technique will have to be good enough that the machinery becomes the weakest link in the production process before you should start spending your inheritance on super expensive espresso machines. You should prolly ditch the Jura and if you really wanna do this you should pick up one of the prosumer e-61 clones, which are a bit less than what a La Spaz will cost, but pretty serviceable for a person who wants to learn this insanity. Buy a good grinder (I don't see one in your equipment list). The Mazzer Super Jolly is a lot of bang for the buck. Take espresso classes if you can find them offered by a local roaster, excellent coffee shop, or the SCAA. Source coffees from very good roasters like Barry Jarrett (Riley's), Intelligentsia, Counter culture, and the like. I see you're doing some roasting yourself and that is fine, but you can get pretty confused over the results if you're roasting the wrong coffees or using the wrong roast profiles on the right coffees.

-Greg

I was one of the first people to be put on the waiting list for the GS/3, and was initially very excited about it. Years went by however, as delivery dates slipped, and the price increased. By the time delivery approached, I no longer felt that the GS/3 represented good value, and its unsteady development path caused me to question the ultimate design and quality of the machine -- questions which seemed to be borne out by those receiving the first machines at that time. I hadn't considered the La Spaziale up to that point, but somebody at LM who I know recommended it as a good alternative, and the features were most of what I was hoping to get at a fraction of the cost. Add to that my frustration with LM generally during the time I waited for the machine to be delivered, which caused me eventually to question whether I wanted to continue dealing with the company and its importer. In total, the La Spaziale made more sense for me on every level -- at least on every non-emotional level.

I can honestly say that there hasn't been a single day that I wished that I had gone with the GS/3. While I definitely fancy the Synesso, the Spaziale has killed my upgrade fever, and it works perfectly for me. It gives me reliably good coffee, with no hassles, and a very pleasant supplier to deal with when I need assistance (which has not been frequent).

My own subjective preferences and experiences obviously won't apply to everyone, and I can easily understand the preference that some have to be able to have more control, and to have a sexier machine, etc. For myself, after 20 years of being serious about coffee, I have become more focussed about what's in the cup, and less focussed about the method of getting there (my sojourn into lever machines helped to cure me of the later). I would suggest that those choosing between these two machines should decide which category they fall within, in coming to a decision.

Rob--good thoughts in your last paragraph, though I'd certainly take issue with the suggestion that whether you're "equipment driven" or "coffee driven" will help you decide between these machines. There are coffee driven people using both, and no doubt the same goes for machine "fanboys" as well.

As a matter of record, I do want to clarify for others (and Rob, correct me if you find this in error) that when Rob refers to the importer of the machine, he means Franke, a commercial super-auto company which took over the import of La Marzocco machines from ESI some years ago. La Marzocco and Franke parted ways last summer, and now La Marzoccos are imported by LM USA, a much smaller company that's importing a much smaller set of much higher-quality equipment. A quick forum search of recent GS3 threads will show (unfortunately) a number of issues that have been too common with the machines, but reading those threads also reveals a much more responsive, communicative dealer than Franke seemed to be. YMMV, but the crew seems to be pretty solid.

I have a GS/3 and have run into most of the problems mentioned in this thread. In fact, this is my second GS/3. The first one had a serious gicleur clog early on, and a month of work with CC failed to isolate and resolve the problem, leading to replacement of the machine. That was back before the declining flow problem was well understood and a relatively simple remedy developed. Had CC and I known what we know today, I would have replaced the gicleur instead of returning the machine (at the time, I wasn't comfortable with disassembling the group head because I was unsure that it could be put back together properly without special tools or procedures.) I'm just as glad that the machine was replaced because the exact cause of the clogging is still not known. It could be manufacturing "swarf" or it could be oxidized chrome or copper formed while the machine sat in Frank's warehouse for 18 months. The problem seems to affect some machines and not others. My first GS/3 failed within two weeks of purchase. The replacement has worked flawlessly for four months.

Well, almost flawlessly. When I first got the replacement machine, it would randomly reboot. This was harmless for the most part, but annoying. It never happened during a shot, but I was concerned that it might. I ended up disassembling the control box, taking out the PC board, cleaning it, cleaning and reseating the connectors, etc. After that the problem went away. I'm pretty sure a loose keyboard cable was the cause.

I've run into the vibration and drip tray problems mentioned in the thread. The vibration can be somewhat tamed by repositioning the pump and using cable-ties on the braided pump output hose. Several owners have reported that the longer replacement hose recently made available by LM eliminates most of the noise and vibration. I hope to try that soon. I'm also contemplating remoting the pump and motor when the warranty runs out. As for the drip tray, I fabricated a replacement out of a cooling rack for baking. It works well, but it's not beautiful.

Recently I ran into a problem with the steam boiler vent valve that's been reported by others. One morning I heard steam bubbling and gurgling inside the machine. I was virtually certain something was wrong with the vent valve. Took the right side panel and confirmed it. Removed the rear panel to expose the valve (a rubber chimney prevents access otherwise) and pushed the button on the top of the valve with a screwdriver angled to avoid my hand getting burned. A few cycles of doing that resolved the problem. I think a bit of debris had lodged in the valve, causing it to not close fully. The rubber chimney is supposed to prevent that, but I guess it's not a perfect solution. Not a big deal and it was resolved quickly and easily.

There are a few other minor issues with the GS/3. The steam arm and water arm can get little stiff, but I haven't found that to be enough of a problem to do anything about it. Some have used food-grade lubricant to loosen them up. There's some variance in the manufacturing tolerances from machine to machine. The cup tray on the one I have now has a really tight fit, whereas the first machine's cup tray didn't. There's also evidence of fabrication issues: the top panel on my machine has one screw with a washer, while the other didn't. On removing the screw and washer, I discovered the washer was put there to hide the fact that the hole had been re-drilled. Evidently, someone had drilled the first hole about 1/16" off from where it was supposed to be. You don't expect to see things like that on a machine in this price range. I suppose I could have demanded a new top panel, but I thought that would be silly. I imagibe it will knock about fifty cents off the resale value...

Ergonomically, the placement of the steam arm and buttons is very poor and potentially dangerous. It's not hard to accidentally hit the hot water button when you mean to hit one of the other buttons, and if the hot water wand is over the drip tray at the time the hot water will burn your hand. It took a few accidents for me to learn to be very careful when pushing buttons.

I wasn't able to steam very well until I replaced the stock 4-hole tip with the EPNW 4-hole tip. Then again, I was learning during that time.

I have a few very minor beefs with the firmware. I think you have to hold the continuous flow button too long to get into programming mode. When accessing functions like boiler temp offset or the automatic backflush sequence, you have to be careful to press the two buttons simultaneously, or you'll activate brewing. Some of the navigation through menus is unintuitive and requires use of multiple buttons. Often you have to skip through a lot of stuff to get where you want to go or to exit. The volumetric programming is lost if the power is removed. But all of that is minor stuff.

Now here's the bottom line: love the machine. I don't think it's the primary factor in the improvement of my coffee of the last five months. I'd say the improvement of my barista skills would be number one on that list. Second would be ditching the Macap M4 for a Baratza Vario (can't wait to taste what an even better grinder can do, but I'm still waiting for a Titan-level grinder with the perfect form factor for me to be produced.) Third would be the Vario getting broken in. What the GS/3 has done for me is pretty-much eliminate any hassle or variation with the machine. It's a rock-solid, accurate performer. The temperature is ultra-stable, doesn't require flushing (though I do a short flush for sanitary reasons) and the temp recovers quickly. The machine does the same thing, over and over, easily, consistently and without fail. This has eliminated all the machine-related variables, allowing me to focus on the coffee selection, grind, dose and prep. I happen to use the volumetric buttons, but I know some think that's heresy. They work quite well in my opinion. I suspect the consistent output of the Vario helps a lot. As for steaming, there's a ton of steam power and once I learned how to use it the results have been excellent, with little variation other than that caused by variations in the milk.

The GS/3 is relatively easy to maintain. On a daily basis, I clean the screen (I use a Synesso screen, which is much better made than the stock LM screen) and do a water backflush. I do a detergent backflush once a week. I drain the two boilers monthly. I'll probably replace the screen, screw and gasket every six months to one year. That's it.

I was inspired to upgrade to a first-rate double boiler machine by the fire-sale price on the GS/3. It was one of those irrational, impulse buy moments, but I don't regret it at all. I didn't consider the Speedster because it was so much more expensive. Although somewhat better designed, and considerably better built, the Speedster lacks some of the nice firmware features of the GS/3. The form factor wouldn't have worked in the space I have.

The Vivaldi II was the only other machine that I seriously considered. Actually, if I had it to do over I might have gotten the Vivaldi II. That's not because of the problems I've had with the GS/3, but because when I made the purchase I wasn't planning on plumbing in, at least for a long while, and I really liked the fact that the GS/3 has the flexibility to go either pour-over or plumb-in. I ended up plumbing in sooner than I expected, and had I known that I probably would have given much more consideration to the Vivaldi II. However, I still like the fact that the GS/3 could be used at another location, like a vacation home, without plumbing in.

The only other thing that put me off the Vivaldi II was the 53mm PF. Although it's not a huge thing, I preferred the standard 58mm size, on theory that there could be some desirable accessories not available in the 53mm format. Probably not an important consideration, but it was a factor in my decision.

I was also influenced by the glowing reviews of the GS/3 by very experienced baristas. My sense was that they definitely preferred the GS/3 to the Vivaldi II, probably because the GS/3 is more like the commercial machines they use. I read a few posts about the Vivaldi II here, on CG and the La Spaz board, and came away feeling that the machine might not be quite up to the GS/3's standard.

That said, strictly from a coffee taste perspective, I'm not at all sure the GS/3 provides any real advantage over the Vivaldi. The temperature stability in both is excellent, maybe a tad better the the GS/3. The GS/3 lets you adjust temperature in .2-degree increments instead of 1-degree increments. The Vivaldi lets you adjust preinfusion pressure via line pressure, the GS/3 doesn't. I suspect only the most discerning coffee drinkers would be able to tell the difference in a cup prepared properly on each machine, and I'm not even sure of that.

boyscout wrote:This one-way traffic towards the GS/3

I guess this has been already discussed, but I know at least one person switching from GS/3 into something more modest (not because of major technical troubles). But downgrading is really rare, whatever the machine is.