Hi folks,

Looking for a bit of help on what machine to go for...

I own a Silvia Mk11 which I like (and Rocky), but have never got over the hassle of temp surfing and irregular shots. I've thought about a PID, but I think I'd rather go down the road of a machine with a bit more reliability.

I've been looking at the La Spaziale S1 Mini V. Looks like a great machine, but not that many people selling in the UK that seem to have that much info on. Can anyone give me a pitch of what they think is this machines key plus points in comparison to others??

Can anyone suggest any alternatives that offer the same kind of quality to that of the Mini V? Synesso / Ascaso etc...

Also, does anyone know of any places in the UK that actually let you go in and test out machines? I kind of want to pull a shot or two before parting with such a large lump of $$$.

Cheers!

Steve

If more of a generic question, I'd start with How to choose an espresso machine and grinder at the "right" price and then look at the Buying Advice forum for threads about this price range. Good search terms would include things from the recent List of double boiler PID rotaries under $2500? thread and threads discussing some of the high-end HX machines like the Elektra, Cimballi Jr. Casa DT1, the new Strega, and a slew more. While rotary pumps, PIDs, and double-boiler machines are all the rage right now, they don't have a lock on high-quality espresso my any means (just ask Doug at Orphan Espresso, who has a machine with a tiny boiler controlled by a 1950s mercury-switch thermostat and a big lever for a "pump").

You also should decide if your budget includes enough for a grinder that matches the machine, or better thought of, buy the best grinder you can, and then see what is left for the machine.

Mentioning the Synesso puts you in a completely different price range. Last I checked, a single-group Hydra is nearly US$10,000. In that same price range would be the Speedster, at 5,800 EUR. The GS/3 is "street" around US$5,500.

What are your goals for the upgrade?

Hi Jeff,

I get your point. However, I've read a lot of posts on here already (including a fair few of the links you posted) and have not managed to come up with a decision so far.

To answer your main question: My goal to upgrade is to gain increased consistency in shots by means of temp control. I feel the main thing holding me back is the inconsistency fo the Silvia...

The general consensus appears to be that you can buy a cheaper machine / grinder (like the Rancilio Silvia / Rocky) and struggle to get the level of consistent and sweet tasting shots that everyone aims for, unless your a seasoned pro or you slog it out for the long haul . However, most folks that have the skills / experience generally opt for slightly higher spec equipment as they want to further advance their espresso making without being held back by stuff like temp control / consistency.

My predicament is that I've looked into the pro's of a machine like a La Spaz S1 and read the benefits of the dual boiler, higher spec components and temp control. However, I would like to know some other options to compare and contrast within this price range - £1450 / $2500 mark (from others experience).

If the Synesso is way above that then what are my other options at this price point??

Another thing that someone might be able to help me with is the choice of dual boiler (which I get all the pro's of) and the HX / E61 group head (which I get the basics of, but not the whole deal!). Can anyone tell me why people opt for one or the other here?

Finally, in the UK I've struggled to find a UK seller that you can visit and test machines out in the same vein as you can in the states. Does any one know of any good places in the UK that offer this?

Thanks !

Silvias are an idea who time has left, at least the non-PID controlled Silvias. And, if you want to do more than very limited and occasional steaming, even they're obsolete.

If you want to up your game, and can at all afford it, you should consider moving on to a better grinder as well as a better machine. Your ability and willingness to spend are probably the two most important factors in making a good choice for machine (and grinder).

Whether you should buy an electronically controlled double boiler machine or a high quality but old-tech HX, depends more on your personality and brewing style than anything else. What's perfect for me, could drive you crazy -- and vice versa.

What you're looking for is a machine which will help you pull shots which let you look into the mix. In other words, you're trying to get away from coffee which tastes like coffee, you want to make coffee that tastes like the coffee. And of course you want a machine which will do it consistently and hold up over the years.

In the US, the ~$2500 market is dominated by a few very good (but not top of the line), double boiler machines. Yes, there is a difference in the cup between the prosumers and the extreme, true professional, high end DBs like the La Marzoccos and Synessos; and a large difference in construction and component quality. I'm not sure why they're more revealing and more rewarding to good technique, but suspect that most of the difference is in the group.

Think about the Alex Duetto, La Spaz, VBM DD and latest Brewtus iteration. They're all well made, and capable of a lot of consistency. None of them are machines you have to do much to work around. Everything else being equal, I doubt you'll get much difference in the cup, so think about what fits your home better, and what you can buy and have serviced without too much trouble.

Understand, the difference between a $2500 prosumer DB and one of the ultra high-enders are not large. Without a great grinder, a great mix, and solid barista skills you wouldn't notice. Good espresso machines not only won't fix problems with the rest of the chain, they make them more obvious. The better the machine, the more capability it has to illuminate nuance. That's a double edged sword.

I'm not an expert by any means, so take it as an FWIW. I prefer better HX machines over DBs. It's partly price. I've experienced and been told by my betters that you can get every bit of consistency and revelation of nuance with a $3000 HX (such as mine, which is probably not available in the UK) as with even the most expensive DBs; but doing it consistently takes more time and attention. An ultra high end DB is surely a better choice for an espresso bar, but if you enjoy putting the concentration and extra steps into pulling a shot, than an HX might be perfect for you. Plus, at more realistic price levels, you get more quality-bang for the buck with an HX.

FYI, an E-61 is a good group; not just for HXs, but for DBs as well. But there are other groups just as good, and a few even better. They mostly start happening above your stated price range, though.

Whether you choose a DB or an HX, plumb in if possible. The convenience of "wasting" water and not running to empty the drip tray will allow you to improve your skills no end. Not to mention the "aroma."

At the risk of nagging, a Rocky isn't the right grinder for a $2500 espresso machine. Not by a long shot.

Good luck,
BDL

BDL,

Thanks for the notes. Appreciated, direct and useful.

I hear what your saying about price Vs quality. I'm keen to stick to what I think is reasonable for a mid level machine ($2500). I'm leaning towards the Izzo Alex Duetto at the moment, as it offers what appears to be a solid mix of DB / PID / E61. Thoughts?

What I aint too sure about is the pro's and con's fo the HX machines. Sure I've read a bunch on here about them and what you get for your $, but I'm still not 100% clear if I'm honest. I understand where the SB machines lie, but still require some steer on the diff between the DB's and HX's fo this world.

Are the HX's just a means of getting more for your money, or are there other benefits of them too that I'm just not understanding??

FYI: The Rocky will have to go when I upgrade. Of that there is no doubt.

sgx, the short answer of DB vs. HX is that one is not better than the other in the cup. DB will give you consistent flat temperature curve. You'll effortlessly set the temp, and your shot will start and end at roughly the same temp. The HX, will provide you with a humped temperature profile, and you'll easily be able to change the brew temp, but you won't be able to "set and forget" the temperature. Some prefer flat-line temp, others the humped temp curve for taste.

Is flat temp the end-all and be-all of espresso? No. Is the hump? Probably not either. What the HX will afford is easily changing the temperature shot-to-shot, allowing you to compare the same bean at different temps. Also, if you get an E61 HX, you can install a temperature probe in the group that allows you to hit the exact temp you want, otherwise HX only affords a "cool", "medium" or "hot" control.

+ 1 for John's description and explanation.

Let me add that an HX requires more focus to get the same consistency and more ritual, messing around and wasted water to get the temp right. In other words, it favors a different type of personality. Like mine.

If you are a tactile, "by eye" kind of guy, who doesn't mind a little futz and a little guess, you're an HX. If you want comforting reassurance that the temp today is the same as you were using yesterday, you're a DB.

It's also easier to adjust HX temp on the fly, but that's only a practical advantage when you're finding the right temp for a new coffee.

By way of example, I set temps by free-pouring (with the pf out) until I hear the flash boiling hiss stop; immediately turn off the pour; then free pour again for a given count to get any one of the following: hot, medium hot, medium, medium cool and cool. Finally, lock the already dosed pf in and go. If that seems like a lot of trouble, you're a DB.

Espresso machines are largely frames and shells with a collection of a limited set of component choices bolted in and on. The "everything else being equal" component set for an HX is cheaper and less complicated than that for a DB. Consequently the same build quality costs less with an HX than a DB. Build quality isn't everything, but it can be important -- depends on what you want.

Price plateaus are not the same for the different types of machines. There are a couple of $3000 HX machines which represent a hulluva lot more machine than any of the $2500 DBs, about the same quality (build and in the cup) as the "King of the hill" $5,500 GS3.

To further muddy the waters, machines as good as the Elektra T1, La Cimbali DT/1 Casa, and La Marzocco GS3 all throw a very bright light on the other parts of the chain. So, if there are weaknesses, a better espresso machine is not a blessing. In addition to demanding better beans and skills they drag you into a world of very expensive grinders.

There is no universal better or best. A $2500 prosumer is going to be a better choice for a lot more people than a $3000 HX. Figure out what you want, and finding the right machine will be pretty easy.

I'm certainly having good luck with machines for which Chris helped develop the design criteria. DB, PID, E-61, indeed.

Bottom line: The Duetto is probably perfect for you.

BDL

Steve, bellabarista.co.uk sells both Duetto and Vivaldi and has extremely detailed reviews of both. For some reason the review of the mini isn't working, but the vivaldi II is.