Both of these machines are in the upper echelon of home espresso. I would love to see a discussion comparing these two machines head to head. Obviously not too many folk have experience with both machines so comments from such folk will be highly valued. But from the standpoint of a purchase decision which is the better machine? The definition of "better" will vary from person as some take different things into consideration based on their personal set of priorities. I understand the Speedster is the more expensive machine but I think manufacturing methods play a big role in the final cost, probably more so than feature set, aesthetics and design.

I'd take the Speedster any day and twice on Sunday.

I don't think the Linea Mini is any slouch either, but the Speedster is a league above it, capability and build quality wise, so it's not a fair comparison.

weebit_nutty wrote:I would love to see a discussion comparing these two machines head to head.

Why? They are completely different machines. Like comparing baseball to chess.

The topic is just too much fun to resist.

weebit_nutty wrote:I understand the Speedster is the more expensive machine but I think manufacturing methods play a big role in the final cost, probably more so than feature set, aesthetics and design.

When all is said and done, the Mini's street price will probably be less than half of the Speedster's. The difference lays -- looking up from the abysm of my ignorance -- mostly in manufacturers' costs associated with aesthetics and design, in the form of very highly customized parts, including the frames and enclosures.

We may mean different things by "manufacturing methods," but both machines are (or will be) hand built, one by one, on benches in first world countries, and not on lines in Asia.

The Speedster is an attempt to build the best single group espresso machine at any price. Whether or not you think Kees van der Westen achieved the goal, either way his rationale is blindingly obvious.

I've never seen a Linea Mini, let alone used one; only read about them, mostly here. It seems LM eliminated useful, user friendly features common in high end machines -- PID display, longer preinfusion, volumetric dosing -- which wouldn't have cost them very much -- for... Wait. What? Other than marketing.

If I wanted an extremely well built machine that put a premium on sensory awareness over digital readouts, I'd buy the machine I already own. Display? I don't need no stinkin' display. But volumetric dosing is nice to have when you want to play Captain Consistent, and a meaningful, 4sec preinfusion is a godsend no matter what.

IMO going without a meaningful preinfusion on a rotary is like going without an OPV on a vibe. Doable if you've got good and extremely consistent puck building skills, but why?

Maybe it's not huge experience, but I have pulled a few dozen shots on PID controlled Lineas. Rugged? Yes. Built to bang 'em out? Yes. Barista friendly once dialed in? Yes. Easy to dial in? Not particularly, it always comes down to palate and patience. Onus on puck building? That's what you get with 2sec preinfusion.

Assuming arguendo that everythig's done just so... Special in the cup? At the risk of disagreeing with my more knowledgeable betters,... Not so much. At least not compared to any reasonably competent, "straight pump" DB. But, by the way, the same is true of the Speedster.

LMLM vs Speedster? GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

Rich

Gfcronus wrote:Why? They are completely different machines. Like comparing baseball to chess.

I dunno about that.

Maybe Chinese chess but certainly not baseball!


But really, Speedster may be in a class all their own from the stand point of aesthetics but I'm not convinced it actually makes that much better of a cup or is that much easier to use.

With espresso I think we can all agree that in terms of cup potential the point of diminishing return begins at the $2000 price point for home espresso. In fact some might even argue it to be much lower at $1200, with the BDB.

So in this regard, when cup potential becomes less of a factor, are those other factors more subjective or technically justified?

LM has been around for decades and I think their operating and tooling costs have been paid off significantly (if not entirely) whereas small boutique manufacturers need to price their machines with those costs in mind. The manufacturing efforts may be the same but the overhead costs are inarguably different. And even more so are the sales volumes. The LMLMs will probably be built in the hundreds. The LM brand carries a huge weight amongst consumers entering the specialty coffee scene. Reputation and brand recognition is everything. As much as I want a Speedster, I find immense appeal in the LM brand for many reasons exclusive to LM. In terms for value $4500 LM is equally appealing to me as an $8000 Speedster.

For me the better comparison is between the two La Marzocco machines. The Speedster I might compare to a Slayer in terms of who might want one. I think that Slayer and Speedster are amazing machines. I saw so many Slayer machines at the SCAA. One thing it is hard to argue about with La Marzocco is the name brings with it parts catalogs and being able to get service all over the world. With Slayer and Synesso, and Speedster you have great service but there may be some special parts that are harder to come by than La Marzocco. Probably best if you live in Seattle.

I was pretty sure I was about to order a GS/3. After seeing the Slayer more I really appreciate what they have done. I never thought I would be calling GS/3 cheap but in that class of machine it is the bargain. If you don't want to have that many options to control the Linea is awesome. I like when I was reading Sweet Maria bean description and they say we liked this bean at 198 but at 202 it has a more .... taste. This sort of gives me recipes to try. Now that I am weighing my dose and my shots I feel I am enjoying the recipe mode.

tr182md wrote: With Slayer and Synesso, and Speedster you have great service but there may be some special parts that are harder to come by than La Marzocco. Probably best if you live in Seattle.

I'd agree with most of this, but in regards to the Speedster specifically, there's full support now, even on the west coast, with Verve and Supersonic now offering them. John Laird told me last year that he'll actually stock Speedster's and common parts for them. So it being a European product won't have much of an affect on folks on this side of the pond. Synesso and Slayer, both being domestic products already, should be in somewhat the same league when it comes to parts acquisition.

Good to know you can get parts. I think I may someday end up with a Slayer but I want them to do a few more iterations. I may be a sucker for the LM name. I really like what Synesso was doing as well. I have been lusting after Synesso since I saw one at espresso Vivace many years ago.

hey who hijacked my thread? lol

let's talk about comparing these two machines. If you want to talk about the virtues of slayer and synesso, start another thread, although plenty has already been said about them in previous discussions.

Right now I'm wondering how inferior the LMLM is to the Speedster. I think Speedster certainly as a more sophisticated design, particular in the infusion functions, but in the LM I think was designed for usability and repeatability. Both machines no doubt are capable of pulling the most out of a shot, but I think the difference is how easy it is to get from point A to point B at home. Maybe in that regard, LMLM might be superior? It has a very large drip tray, does not have to be plumbed.

Trouble is finding someone with first hand experience on both. It's sorta kicking the tires without that point of view. But I think you raise an important and vital point, that the Linea Mini, with its new technology and design (maybe somewhat similar to a Breville Dual Boiler?), might be able to go toe to toe with the ultra premium machines on the market today. When baristas comment that they usually bypass a lot of pressure profile fussiness (and not because of a long line of waiting customers) then some of the sparkle of these advanced designs may not ultimately matter as much.

Many things are ultimately subjective though. How many hobbyists would like to have a Speedster on their counter? How many then, would like to have a Linea Mini and a pile of $4000 cash sitting right next to it? How many then would like to have a BDB with $7000 cash sitting next to theirs? What if all three got you within 90+ percent of excellent shots and capable of making your most common drink?

I imagine after this weekends SCAA Expo, we'll be hearing a lot more about folks impressions of the Linea Mini.