What are the "Pros and Cons" of these two machines and which one would you choose and why? I am going to purchase an espresso machine for my shop/office and I have narrowed my decision to these two machines. The machine will be required to make 8-10 espresso shots and 2-4 Cappuccinos per day seven days a week. I myself will mostly be operating and cleaning the machine. I will also purchase a grinder (Jolly, Compak K-3, or Macap M4) with the machine as a package deal. Also, ease of operation is important. Although, cost is not really a factor. The shop/office has 220 voltage if needed and the machine can be directly plumbed. Thanks in advance for your knowledge.

Joined: Feb 22, 2010
Location: Earth
Real Name: Dirt

Yes, well, welcome "dirt" to home-barista . . . being from the planet Earth is helpful, because most machines on this planet require the use of two hands equipped with opposable thumbs . . . I shall presume, from your command of the English language, that you are in the US or Canada, and that you will -- in all probability -- be getting your machine from Chris' Coffee. Great vendor; great support before AND after the sale . . .

Be that as it may, I'm curious as to why you picked these two machines. What was it about them that caught your attention?

By the way, although there is only one model (to my knowledge) of the Izzo Alex Duetto II ($2295), there are two different models of the Cimbali . . . which are you thinking of, the La Cimbali Junior DT1 ($3595), or the La Cimbali Junior S1 ($3095)?

All three are fine machines, but what my choices would be may be different than your choices. So, with that in mind, were it for ME, I'd get the Cimbali Junior DT1, the Izzo Alex Duetto II, and Cimbali Junior S1, in that order. For YOU, however, I suspect the order would be the Izzo Alex Duetto II, followed by the Cimbali Junior DT1, and then the Cimbali Junior S1, in that other.

The "pros" of the Cimbali DT1 are its excellent workmanship; it's built like a tank! It is a rock-solid, time-tested, proven design with a good customer base. It features volumetric dosing, which I find to be a significant plus. It has a rotary pump. (The Cimbali Junior S1 has a vibe pump.) On the downside, it's more expensive than the Izzo, and must be plumbed into the water supply (though you indicated this wouldn't be a problem).

As for the Izzo Alex Duetto II, although it is relatively new to the US market, it has an ever increasing customer base. It is a double-boiler machine, which may be an advantage in terms of your expressed concern for "ease of operation." (Either machine will deliver in the cup, where it counts.) It also has a rotary pump, is readily switchable from pourover to plumbed and back again, and is substantially less expensive than the DT1. The downside is that, because it is so new, no one has used it over the course of 5 years, 10 years, 15+ years (as have Cimbali owners).

A few final thoughts . . .

a) If you haven't already, I would strongly encourage you to read the "Buyer's Guide to La Cimbali Junior DT1" by Dan Kehn. Also search this site for posts on the Cimbali Junior DT1 by Ken Fox.

b) The Cimbali is a Heat Exchanger (HX) machine, while the Izzo is a double boiler (DB) model. There is nothing inherent in the design of either machine that makes one "better" than the other in terms of quality in the cup. "Temperature surfing" seems to put some people off, but I've found it quite easy to do, and it's quite easy to reproduce quality shots. The most difficult thing about "temp surfing" is to explain it. It takes longer and is more complicated to explain than it is to do. (Again, if you don't mind the sufestion, I would also urge you to read How I Stopped Worrying, and Learned to Love HXs by Dan Kehn.) That said, for "ease of operation" with limited experience, you may find the DB design more to your liking.

c) With the money you save on the Izzo, you can get a better grinder.

Cheers,
Jason

The bottom line is that "temp surfing" is relatively easy to do, and makes it easier to alter your brewing temperature "on the fly," as it were. However, the Izzo is a double boiler with PID control, and that will be easier for someone new to the home experience. The Cimbali is a great machine, but it is also a very demanding machine. There are much easier HX machines to use -- like mine, for example (the Elektra A3/Elektra T1).

There are a number of users of the Izzo Alex Duetto II here, and getting help/advice from them -- as well as getting great service from Chris' Coffee -- should allay any concerns you have about the "newness" of the Izzo.

In terms of ease-of-use, I would strongly recommend that you consider the Baratza Vario. It's approximately $450 (with the updated electronics board), features timed dosing for consistency, and is the equal of virtually any sub-$1,000 grinder. It is also equally adept at grinding for espresso, for drip, for press, and for other methods of coffee preparation. Most espresso grinders perform at their best when they are designed as a dedicated espresso grinder. The Baratza Vario is one of the very few exceptions to this.

Most of the time the espresso at Starbucks is bitter. Is the taste of a good pulled espresso shot suppose to be bitter?

No. Or rather, "bitterness" is one component in the broad spectrum of flavors in espresso but it should never be the dominant flavor. Think of it this way: if the first thing you taste in the gumbo is salt, there's too much salt in the gumbo. But if there was no salt whatsoever, it would seem "off" or "dull" in some way.

This combination -- the Izzo Alex Duetto II and the Baratza Vario, with the new board -- will cost no more than $2,744 (and may cost less) from Chris' Coffee. OTOH, the Cimbali DT1 on its own is $3,595. Get the Izzo -- less $$$ and easier to use . . .

Cheers,
Jason

You could also buy a PV Lusso and put the money you save towards a better grinder like a K10. PV Lusso are among the easier machines according to the review. And big conicals are easier too.

I totally concur with what Jason's said so far but that's not unusual, as his observations and comments are usually spot on.

I'm sure you've run across the often quoted saying that the grinder is the heart and soul of an espresso setup. That was hinted at on Jason's post "c) With the money you save on the Izzo, you can get a better grinder." and that would echo my advice.

I'd suggest taking a good look at the following grinders from CC:

The Vario, which most users feel is equivalent to, if not slightly better than the Jolly, and you simply can't beat it's price.

The Cimbali Max Hybrid, which aside from being a tad messy and doesn't take kindly to be single dosed, is an excellent grinder.

The Compak K10 WBC, which is the most expensive grinder on my short list but still would be my #1 choice.

FYI, I own a Vario and Compak K10 WBC.

Not trying to throw a monkey wrench into this thread but have you taken a look at this espresso machine: http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom.../vivaldi_2

You can read the review on that machine @ http://www.home-barista.com/la-spaziale...eview.html