At $2400.00 'ish USD for a PID DB with a rotary pump, it sounds too good to be true, what with Salvatore (practically in my back yard), or a GS3 coming in at well over double that, for the same major feature set. This sounds too good to be true. Discuss?

Further, I have yet to find a detailed review either here or on CG.

-Peter

Check SF Craigslist.

erics wrote:True, but this should suffice - http://www.chriscoffee.com/files/39/IzzoAlexDuettoIIcloserlookv4.pdf

That and all of the related topics at the bottom of the page.

That and all of the related topics at the bottom of the page.

Thanks. That, in a VERY long-form way, covers the "detailed review" aspect of my question... er... more or less.

However, much of "the related topics at the bottom of the page", you suggest has revealed scant discussion of my primary question, which is, "how is this machine offered for less than half the price of the establishment, top guns with the same features?" Cheaper, less robust parts? Lower quality workmanship? Better utilization of modern design and manufacturing techniques? Combination of the three?

-Peter

pcrussell50 wrote: "how is this machine offered for less than half the price of the establishment, top guns with the same features?" Cheaper, less robust parts? Lower quality workmanship? Better utilization of modern design and manufacturing techniques? Combination of the three?

-Peter

Well, the expobar brewtus is even cheaper. I got mine 3 years ago for $1800 on sale (DB,pid,rotary), and I don't have regrets or itch to upgrade. It even has "paddle" by putting the lever in the mid position (water pressure from line). Why is it cheaper? Don't know. Could it be similar to pricing cars?


Cheers

Arpi wrote:Well, the expobar brewtus is even cheaper. I got mine 3 years ago for $1800 on sale (DB,pid,rotary), and I don't have regrets or itch to upgrade. It even has "paddle" by putting the lever in the mid position (water pressure from line). Why is it cheaper? Don't know. Could it be similar to pricing cars?

Cheers

To be fair, ALL plumbed E61 machines have this feature, though you cannot get any less than about 6 seconds of pre-infusion because of the time it takes to fill the chamber of the E61 group. You can go longer on pre-infusion but not shorter.

And yes, Expobar is considerably cheaper than the Alex. The Vibiemme used to be as well but has had a price increase over the last year. Differences between these three are very minor, so it's personal preference and price that is most likely to affect your decision.

If you are wanting to compare less expensive machines to the GS3, I think you'd have to add the La Spaziale Vivaldi to your list. Bang for the buck in the DB department, it's hard to beat, especially given its reliability that has been proven with Chris Coffee selling over 3,000 machines yet only having a few "trouble" issues posting on any forum.

Common criticism for the Vivaldi has been its looks and the absence of a PID (has a digital thermometer instead; very minor gripe in my opinion). Features it has that are missing on the E61s are programmable pre-infusion, volumetric dosing, and massive 2.5 liter steam boiler (much smaller on the Mini Vivaldi to make room for the water reservoir). I may be missing some other features, but you get the idea. Chris Coffee has a great videos to show you the features of a few of their machines

Enjoy your research. Many great machines out there at this price point. It all comes down to what appeals to you.

pcrussell50 wrote: Cheaper, less robust parts? Lower quality workmanship? Better utilization of modern design and manufacturing techniques? Combination of the three?

My guess is the main reason is that Izzo uses pretty much all "off the shelf" parts, and just found a smart way to package them all in the same case as a standard HX machine. There's really nothing new or unique in there, and all of the most expensive components are the same parts used on probably dozens of other machines made by Izzo and lots of other companies. Compared to the other machines you mentioned (Salvatore and GS3) which are mostly made of custom parts for a unique design i.e., all of the costs have to be recouped by selling just those single models instead of spreading the costs across many different models (and over a much longer time frame). Izzo probably also got some benefit from selling through Chris' Coffee, who has a history of shipping a lot of units and providing feedback and tweaks to incrementally improve the machines over time. Little things like the PID controlling both the brew and steam boilers (instead of relying on a p-stat for steam) don't make a big difference, but add up a bunch of little tweaks like that and it's enough to separate one machine from the pack.

uscfroadie wrote:To be fair, ALL plumbed E61 machines have this feature, though you cannot get any less than about 6 seconds of pre-infusion because of the time it takes to fill the chamber of the E61 group. You can go longer on pre-infusion but not shorter.

That assumption is valid if all the machines had the same water debit (and assuming that they all have the same chamber size). Not sure if rotary versus vibration pump would make a difference. Maybe a gliceur would also play a role. Then I think the amount of coffee/basket would play a role also on the preinfusion time (till you see the first drop?). So preinfusion may not be the same for all E61 groups.

Cheers

And yes, Expobar is considerably cheaper than the Alex.

Not to split hairs, but Wholelattelove has the the Brewtus at $2199, $200 cheaper, or a little under 10%. Not insignificant, but pretty arguably not "considerably cheaper".

I have started a thread in the buyers guide asking about this class. As the OP, I have no further need to beat this thread to death, now that I know the Alex is not the sole revolutionary hero in this class. Thanks for the help thus far.

List of DB PID rotaries under $2500?

-Peter