avdiscolo wrote:I've read that the throat of the K10 is pretty large, so running the grinder without a hopper may be a possibility. How much coffee can fit comfortably in the throat? Does anyone have any experience running a K10 in this manner?

Many of us single dose & run the K10 without a hopper. I've fit a 24g dose in the throat with room left for the Spice Islands bottle that sits on top of the dose to prevent popcorning.

Peppersass wrote:I've never looked back. While the BV may be a Titan or near-Titan grinder as far as taste is concerned, it isn't in terms of consistency.

This thread is perfect timing. when the Baratza Vario works, I love it. I curse the thing whenever it randomly loses calibration or the lever slips every now and then. Nothing like burning through $20 of beans figuring out what happened and then re-tuning the thing. I've had mine about 15 months and I probably have lost $60 in beans screwing around for no reason. Very annoying. I'm sure every grinder has its draw backs and consistency is the drawback of the Vario.

avdiscolo wrote:The only thing holding me from going with the Compak K10 Pro Barista is the size. Our cabinets are a tad over 17.5" high and even with the short hopper the K10 is 19". In addition, the specs say the K10 is 14.5" deep (really?) and if it can't fit under the cabinets, I don't see how it will fit on the counter.

I've read that the throat of the K10 is pretty large, so running the grinder without a hopper may be a possibility. How much coffee can fit comfortably in the throat? Does anyone have any experience running a K10 in this manner?

Yes. I think it's the best way to use the grinder, but I'm a fan of single dosing.

I upgraded from a BV to a K10 WBC (still have the BV and use it for vac-pot and press.) My cabinets are a tad under 18" high and 12" deep. The countertop is a tad over 26" out from the wall, including the backsplash. That leaves about 14" of unobstructed countertop in front of the cabinets.

As you surmised, the K10 can't fit under the cabinets with the short hopper. It does fit under the cabinets without a hopper, so in theory you could single dose. But with a height of about 16", there's not enough room to get your hand under the cabinets with a scoop or cup full of beans, and no room for a tamper or spice bottle to prevent popcorning. Not practical.

What to do? With 14" of counterspace in front of the cabinets, there was enough room to park the K10 with the entire grinder out from under the cabinets. The suction feet are set back from the leading edge of the grinder base by about an inch. As long as the front feet are on the counter, the portion of the base in front of them can hang over the edge.

But I wasn't about to waste that much valuable counter space on a permanent basis. It happens to be right next to the range, in the prime location for temporarily placing pots, spoons, food, etc. needed when cooking. Besides, the grinder would have looked silly sitting that far out from the wall, with part of the base hanging over the edge of the counter.

I solved this problem by storing the grinder under the cabinets when not in use, and pulling it out from under the cabinets when I need to use it. The grinder's powerful suction feet would make this too difficult to do on a regular basis, so I made a pad for the grinder out of black foam board cut to the exact outline of the base. The foam board allows the grinder to slide easily on the Corian counter, but the weight of the grinder keeps it from moving around when the motor is running. The grinder is perfectly stable when operating. Thus, I can easily slide the grinder forward when I need to use it, then back out of the way when I'm done.

When I first came up with this, I remember Jim Schulman telling me to pull the foam board, not the grinder. He probably thought I would pull the grinder by the doser or some other delicate part. I started out by putting my hand behind the grinder, sort of half-hugging it, and pushing it forward. But eventually I ended up just grabbing the forks, putting a hand on the back, and pulling. The forks mount is plenty rugged. Besides, the foam board doesn't provided a lot of resistance.

Note that you don't need a full 14.5" of counter in front of the cabinets for this to work. To single dose, the grinder throat needs to be clear of the cabinets. But the back of the throat is not at the back of the grinder. There are several inches of grinder between the back of the throat and the back of the grinder. In fact, you only need about 10.5" in front of the cabinets to get the throat clear. That's the distance from the back of the throat to the front edges of the front suction feet. As noted earlier, the portion of the base in front of the feet can hang over the edge of the counter if necessary.

The throat is plenty large enough for the biggest dose you would every want to use, with plenty of room for a Spice Islands spice jar to suppress popcorning. Mine contains peppercorns and is still sealed. Should I need the peppercorns I'll replace them with nuts and bolts. (You know, it's a real tribute to Jim Schulman that many of us use the same brand spice jar he uses .)

If I need to make drinks for a crowd, the small hopper can be mounted by pulling the grinder out a little more. The short hopper only requires an extra couple of inches of counter space -- about 12 1/2" in front of the leading edge of the cabinets. I haven't tested the large hopper (it's in a box in the basement), but I think it would fit with the grinder pulled out as far as the countertop will allow -- probably with the base hanging out over the edge, but the feet securely on the counter.

Peppersass, thank you so much for that detailed reply. I really appreciate it.

gsylvest wrote:This thread is perfect timing. when the Baratza Vario works, I love it. I curse the thing whenever it randomly loses calibration or the lever slips every now and then. Nothing like burning through $20 of beans figuring out what happened and then re-tuning the thing. I've had mine about 15 months and I probably have lost $60 in beans screwing around for no reason. Very annoying. I'm sure every grinder has its draw backs and consistency is the drawback of the Vario.

No kidding. Same thing happens to me occasionally, its maddeningly frustrating - especially when you are in a hurry and this happens.

Aside from the being so large and difficult to place under cabinets in your home, is the Robur still technically the best grinder out there for espresso?

haunch wrote: . . . is the Robur still technically the best grinder out there for espresso?

The more I "play" in the realm of high(er)-end espresso equipment, the harder it is to answer that question.

I think the Robur (and especially the Robur-E, but I prefer doserless) is still the benchmark when it comes to commercial applications (cafés, coffee houses) where the owner and staff are serious about their espresso. But I am not sure that it is the "best" in a home environment, where usage is light (rather than heavy), occasional (rather than continual), and where its powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men -- uh, grinders -- are never fully utilized.

But that's me; YMMV.

Well then what do you think is the best?

It seems like everybody spends more time rationalizing about the cheaper/mid-range grinders equivalence to the highest end grinders (I'm not accusing you of this, just a thought I've had while researching about grinders).

It doesn't matter to me whether or not it far surpasses what you will ever need to use at home - or even the price tag. It's what is the most consistent and best tasting in the cup. Even if it is a marginal difference.

There has to be a best.

....right?

haunce wrote:It seems like everybody spends more time rationalizing about the cheaper/mid-range grinders equivalence to the highest end grinders (I'm not accusing you of this, just a thought I've had while researching about grinders).

Hmmmm . . . I haven't noticed. Then again, I have -- for lack of a better term -- one high-end grinder (the Mahlkönig K30 Vario), and one mid-range grinder (the Baratza Vario, aka the Mahlkönig VARIO Home).

haunce wrote:It doesn't matter to me whether or not it far surpasses what you will ever need to use at home - or even the price tag. It's what is the most consistent and best tasting in the cup. Even if it is a marginal difference.

There has to be a best.

....right?

No. I don't think so.

IF we were discussing, for example, which sports car has the most horsepower, or which is the fastest 0-60 . . . it is objectively possible to PROVE which one is best.

On the other hand, when it comes to matters of taste, the "best" is in the taste buds of the beholder. In other words, if you and I are together, in front of ONE 2-group espresso machine, we open ONE pound of freshly roasted beans and pour half into one grinder and half into another, and have the reigning World Barista Champion dial in and pull two shots of us each (one from each grinder) -- you may prefer the shot from grinder A and I may prefer the one from grinder B. And which one of us is right? who is wrong?

No, "best" in matters of taste is illusive at -- well, at best.

Cheers,
Jason

I understand it is difficult to set an objective standard for taste. But surely if it is broken down as objectively as possible, in all other regards, it can be narrowed down - don't you think? I mean, putting aside all rationalizing, is it really that controversial as to what the ultimate grinder is? Not the best bang for your buck. Not the best under a specific price point - but - the ultimate single dose grinder with the standards being on consistency and taste - at any price.

Based on a decent amount of reading and research, it seems like its one of these three:

• K10 WBC
• Elektra Nino
• Mahlkönig K30 Vario


Sound accurate?

Versalab