Hi,
I just registered to the forum but I've been reading a lot of the boards for a while.
I've been enjoying espresso for a while, and after months of reflections i am ready for a major upgrade.
I have been using a Nespresso machine for 4 years, it was a trade-off for usability even if I was never happy with the quality of espresso I was getting from it.

Long story short, I want to buy a new dual boiler machine and a proper grinder. ( watched all the Newbie espresso videos ) read a LOT of blogs and How-tos and everything. I know I need Good coffee, (freshly roasted) i'm about to buy a Baratza forte grinder, and I want a good machine to go with it.

here's the thing:
I live in a condo. small counter space, tiny kitchen. ( baratza grinder has the smallest footprint I can think of and is a proper grinder for my needs. ( 2 adults making 3-4 espresso shots each days.)

I am looking at the Alex duetto, the Rocket r58, and also maybe the Breville dual boiler 920XL.
I don't see much people talking about the dual boiler here. I've made some research and Breville is supposed to have fix some issues on the 920 comparing to the 900 the new 920.
The other reason I'm looking at it is because i'm not sure I can plumb the machine in my small kitchen, so with either the alex duetto or the rocket i'll loose pre-infusion. ( reading everywhere that it helps preventing channeling as the coffee expands, and helps the taste a little) and they give 2 year warranty on the machine.
I thing the Italian machines are better looking, but the Breville seems to do everything they do and more, for about half the price.. I know, I know, chinese manufacturing, appliance company etc..

So I'm wondering, If I want a small machine, ideally dual boiler, good quality, to go with a baratza forte ( which has an integrated scale (small footprint, no need for a separate scale)
what would you recommend?
Is it worth spending the money to go to a duet to? will it make better coffee than the Dual boiler? ( I know the barista is one of the key element but still)

NB. My loved one is not very skilled or interested in learning that much, at least now, so I was at first looking at the new Breville Oracle, but reading reviews the grinder is the weakest point on that machine, ( and the fixed 21g of coffee that it gives) but it would give non skilled barista the "ease of use" that they need.
However, would I still be able to pull excellent shots from it?

Thanks for your help

This question comes up quite a bit here. What you get with the Breville is a great feature set for the price. What you give up is some reliability, and less ability to do self-service. That is not to say that the other machines will be trouble-free, as we always have threads about issues. I have used a friend's Breville, and it is really quite nice. The upgrades with the new model are also good.

Another machine to consider is the Quick Mill Silvano, essentially a "dual boiler" with a thermoblock for steaming. It will be closer in price to the Breville.

Thanks!
I was questioning myself as if with the Breville DB I could pull up shots as good as ones with the Alex duetto or r58?

And if I decide for a DB with a e61 group, not plumbing it would mean losing pre-infusion...
But the machine seems of a better built quality and classic design.
It's a tough one. Paying double price and losing pre-infusion. But gaining build quality...

I'll check the quick mill too!

Yep but both the Alex duetto and the r58 states that to get pre infusion you need to plumb them in. Maybe requirement if these machine.

Now I have to convince my loved one that the oracle isn't a good solution....

I also looked at a crossland cc1 (even if it's not a dual boiler.
For the small size.
I plan on invest more in the grinder. Something like a Barbara forte.
The r58 really is tempting though.
Very nice machine.

berenger wrote:Thanks!
I was questioning myself as if with the Breville DB I could pull up shots as good as ones with the Alex duetto or r58?

And if I decide for a DB with a e61 group, not plumbing it would mean losing pre-infusion...
But the machine seems of a better built quality and classic design.
It's a tough one. Paying double price and losing pre-infusion. But gaining build quality...

I'll check the quick mill too!

Actually, the Breville is as good as any of the flat temperature profile prosumer DB's out there. I have used both a BDB and a Duetto, the espresso is the same from each. The Duetto is more fun to use but the BDB is way more convenient. I prefer the BDB.

Coffeeforums in the UK did a side by side comparison with an Expobar Brewtus. The reviewer ended up getting the BDB. The thread is in the link. Breville is called Sage in the UK.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/forumdisplay. ... ccessories

Thanks guys!
One last thing. If I go with a lever machine (again for counter space) like a cremina, how long would it take for me to be able to pull nice shots?

I know temp is not as precise, and it could heat pretty fast, but I will make only 3-4 espressos in the morning so that wouldn't be an issue.


Actually, a lever machine is what appeal me the most, but reading about piD, and temp stability, and seing how machines compete for features/stability it seems going totally to the opposite going for a manual.
But still some people seems to swear they are the best.

I know cremina's reputation, and on a condo counter, it would take so little counter space. (And it's beautiful) I'm just afraid not being able to pull decent shots out of it.

Thierry,

Before talking about machines, how much counter space do you have, and will the machine and grinder be placed under cabinets?

I've owned two Creminas, and they are fantastic little wonders. Whether or not they are right for you depends. They heat up and are ready to pull in about 10 minutes once you've flushed water through the grouphead to bring it and your portafilter up to temp. Pulling 3-4 shots at one sitting will take quite a while, and your grouphead will overheat (even if you have the Teflon gasket installed), requiring you to cool the grouphead with a cool rag, dumping your portafilter in cold water and re-inserting, or taking a cup of water and submerging the lower portion of your grouphead into the cool water until you cool the grouphead down to your normal starting point.

They are not difficult to use, but they require far more than you to just lift a lever or push a button. Also, they require frequent maintenance - lubing of piston seals, lever pins, and roller - in order to keep them in tip-top shape. For this you'll need special pliers. On the plus side, because they are so simple, if cared for properly, they'll last a very long time...and I found them very fun to use.

Steaming on the Cremina is great for small amounts of milk, but if big 12 ounce lattes are your thing, this might not be the machine for you. At Olympia's standard setting of ~.9 bar boiler pressure, the steam starts off quite dry, but gets very wet as the boiler pressure drops. You can increase the boiler pressure to give you more of a reserve of quality steam, but you do so at the cost of overheating the grouphead more quickly. The more you overheat, the longer you need to cool it back down for the next shot.

On ease of use, it's not hard, but it will demand more of you. Creminas have their following, and for good reason. For its size, it's very hard to beat, and it's a very fun machine to use...just don't try serving drinks at a dinner party with it. Having said all that, it is capable of delivering excellent shots on par with E61s and the like, provided you have the skill to do so.

The other machines you mention are MUCH bigger (3 - 4 times bigger when you look at cubed size!) and will really eat up counter space. To get a clue of just how much, get a box of similar average dimensions for the machines you are considering and cover it in aluminum foil. Place it on your counter and have your wife weigh in.

If she is cool with the shiny box, here's what the dual boilers will offer over the Cremina. 1) You can make drinks all day long without overheating the grouphead. 2) With a properly prepared portafilter, they will deliver the same shot over and over again, with very minor differences you might not even be able to detect, making this possibly more user-friendly if your wife decides to partake in the process. On the downside, they are more costly to repair. ALL machines need repair at some point, so this needs to be factored in.

The 2-year warranty you mention varies between manufacturers. On the Duetto it covers parts and labor, but you need to get the machine to your dealer for repairs. If this requires shipping, expect to fork over $150 for the machine to make the trip there and back. If you live close by, drive it over. On the Breville, a phone call gets a new or refurbed machine delivered to you free of charge, with a return label to mail your old one back. On the plus side for the E61 boxes is that they generally use universal parts, so they can be maintained for a long time. This is great if you plan on doing the repairs yourself, but if you take it in or ship it for repairs, this could get costly and might have you weighing repair versus purchasing a new machine when you consider your machine's value at the time of repair. It's the same thing we go through with vehicles. They can also be repaired and kept on the road for a long time, but are you going to want to spend the money to do so? Sooner or later you'll probably make the decision to just replace it...

E61 machines take much longer to heat up than the Breville double boiler. I ran my E61s on an electrical timer, having them come on 45 minutes before I woke up so they would be ready to go. The Breville needs far less time, so I had it come on 15 minutes prior.

On the grinder, the Forte is an excellent choice. Robustly built with an all-metal construction and provides very low retention and is very easy to use. It's pretty fast too for its size, taking less than 10 seconds for me to grinder 20.5 grams for my GS/3; on my Cremina which I dosed about 17 grams in the Elektra double basket I think it only took about 8 seconds.

This is a time of many great choices, making the buying decision for you much harder. It really comes down to which one fits your needs and budget best.

Good luck.

+1 on what Merle said....