actually, it's more of a 'how do I buy' or 'why should I buy' or 'what do I need to consider', help that I need.

I had a $20 Salton machine for 5 years before what it made was unacceptable to drink...and that's with old, stale, tinned Nabob.

I know the difference between a SB, HX and DB machine and manual pull, semi-auto, auto and super auto...and that the manual is tough for beginners and that super auto's aren't generally well regarded compared to the Semi and the Auto. being I wish to make milk based beverages, I realize the SB is out. aside from that...I am at a loss on trying to figure out what I should buy or why I should buy it. my budget is $1000 - $1500 CDN. Can someone please help me figure out the 'how' or 'why' I should buy?

I've read so much and am simply overwhelmed that I can't 'sort' it any longer...aside from maybe finding the funds for the Mini Vivaldi II because it's so well regarded. When it comes to grinders, it's pretty easy...the Vario or the Super Jolly (yes, I know that's simplified...but that's 'generally' where the recommendations point you to). There are no recommendations when it comes to HX systems. Why is that? Surely there are features or considerations that need to be made beyond whether I want to brew milk drinks that some companies execute better then others which makes them popular and highly recommended. if there is...I haven't found that thread/post/report or how-to yet.

thank you!

Looks like Dan answered while I was typing my response, but since the replies are at times similar, but not the same I'll submit mine, too...

There are lots of reviews of HX machines on here that talk about the various strengths and weaknesses of different HX machines.

http://www.home-barista.com/reviews.html

Beyond that there isn't a simple answer. For many people a double boiler is better than an HX - I'm in the other camp. Some really love big milk drinks and want machine X, others almost never steam milk and want machine Y, and still others steam milk, but only for small drinks and want machine Z. Some prefer to emphasize clarity, others body, etc. None of these people are right or wrong these are issues of taste. That is why you can't get a right answer. For grinders there just aren't that many great grinders under $500 so in that budget it is simpler. If you want to spend up to $2,000 for your grinder you can make the question more about personal preference again there that way.

Also once you are talking about machines in the $1,500 range or more as most HX and DB's are you are almost always talking about machines that make great espresso and steam milk fairly well. It is hard to think of one that is a dud (although I'm sure there are some out there - I just don't know about them). Then people can try to claim "my great machine X is better than your great machine Y," but assuming comparable grinders the bigger difference will usually result from the beans, the barista's style, etc.

The conclusion many draw from this is that the vendor is almost more important than the machine. I know there are certainly vendors out there who I wouldn't buy anything from and others who I'd gladly pay a little more to buy from.

if you read those threads, as I did before and as I just did again, you'd see that while there are some 'recommendations' there, everybody recommends something different and in those cases, a SB was enough for almost all of them.

I know for the DB, the cost effective Mini Vivaldi II, is highly recommended for the budget I have. When it comes to HX though, everyone likes what they have, but there's much discord in that everybody usually has something different. I'm looking for a recommendation(s) with the reasons why...that others echo. I don't see the same machine being recommended over and over and over, such as the Silvia. sure there's other options, but the Silvia is oft the most recommended SB. why isn't it the same for HX and DB systems?

Cameron, both here and on CG, you have shown a marked tendency towards "analysis paralysis." It's a common affliction, but worrisome in that you appear to still be looking for the single, right answer.

There is NO one right answer. Period.

Why does someone buy a Ford/Chevy/Dodge pickup truck over the other two, when -- essentially -- they are identical to one another in terms of their capabilities and price? Why does one buy a Toyota Corolla/Honda Civic/Nissan Sentra over the other two, when -- essentially -- they are identical to one another in terms of their capabilities and price? Etc., etc., etc. One person might opt for the Ford, another for the Chevy, and not only will both be very happy with their respective choices, but both will swear that theirs is better than the other choices out there.

Any number of different machines will suit your needs perfectly. There is no one "right" answer. That is why, when you read the reviews or the discussions, you think that "everybody recommends something different." It's because they ALL work!

Friendly wrote: . . . a SB was enough for almost all of them.

Only until they move up to an HX or a DB, and then you read statements like "I'll never go back to an SBDU," or "I can't believe I waited this long to upgrade to an HX" (or DB, whichever is appropriate).

Friendly wrote: . . . such as the Silvia. sure there's other options, but the Silvia is oft the most recommended SB.

Brief history lesson: There was a time not too long ago when the Rancilio Silvia and the Gaggia Classic were both $399 at retail. And at that time, these were considered the two best machines available for the consumer market. Today, the Gaggia Classic is $499 (although right now, it's on sale for $399), while the Rancilio Silvia is $649 or more. Regardless of what version the Silvia is on now, it remains essentially the same machine. The Le'Lit PL041 has risen to join these ranks, and is also $399 or so.

The Silvia is an excellent machine, but I haven't recommended one in probably five years -- at $649, it is simply way too expensive for what you get.

Friendly wrote:why isn't it the same for HX and DB systems?

Because we're talking about Ford, Chevy, and Dodge . . .

Look, Cameron, you are right: lots of people love the Vivaldi, or the Mini-Vivaldi, and quite rightly so, and yet I wouldn't buy one. Why? Because, personally, I don't like the way it looks, and aesthetically, I want a machine that I will like looking at today, and 5-10 years from today. On the other hand, there are also lots of people who dislike the "boxy" look of an all stainless steel semi- or full-automatic HX or DB machine. They don't want one of those in their kitchens, period. I love the way most of Kees van der Westen's machine look, such as this Mirage Duette Classic

but I do not personally like the way his Speedster looks

and while it's an excellent machine, I just don't want it. (FWIW, it's the same thing with a La Marzocco GS/3 -- I'd much rather have an LM 1-group Linea.)

Please note: despite the size of the pictures, the 2-group Mirage is a larger machine than the 1-group Speedster.

If you want to spend under $1000 (and these links are to US vendors, not Canadian ones -- I believe I provided you with links to Canadian retailers on CG, IIRC) and don't mind the sort of ABS plastic on the Vivaldi, look at the Bezzera BZ02 for $949.00. Personally, I prefer the looks of the BZ07, but it's $1,099.00. Both work quite well . . . among several other options!

Cheers,
Jason

you're right Jason, I am suffering from some paralysis. but I'm hoping for some rationale on how to buy or why to buy, beyond the looks. I'm having a hard time to find that rationale beyond the Silvia for a SB and the Vivaldi II for a DB as it doesn't seem like there's a peer group that's bought a model or several model's because they've proven themselves to be an outstanding manufacturer/product in the HX market, which is squarely where my budget sits me. that seems to be an anomaly. sure, lots of people prefer Ford over Dodge or visa versa, but there are reviews out there that compare them to one another and site the pro's and con's for the difference and give them grades based on a balanced measure. is there anything like that for espresso machines? if so...I seem to have overlooked it.

if it is indeed, they ALL work (like you've mentioned) and it's all based on which one looks/appeals to you the most, then I'll change the way I'm looking for a machine. I was rather taken by the Bezzera Medea E61. I had hoped that someone would give counter arguments with products that do a better job with the E61 grouphead, or perhaps do just as good a job for a bit less etc etc etc.

so how about this...the E61 grouphead is a tried/tested/true system and is still in a lot of use today. having read what I've read, I've got the confidence it's something I'd buy without regret/concern. with that in mind, does anyone do a particularly outstanding job with the E61 that makes them a better consideration then the rest of the pack? if so, what is it that makes that machine better? if not, I will just go buy because something looks good! LOL!

Cameron,

Friendly wrote:I'm hoping for some rationale on how to buy or why to buy, beyond the looks.

Just to restate (what I hope is) the obvious: looks is not the primary reason to buy a machine. Functionality, capability, and price are all key factors. But there are usually several machines that will fit your requirements in terms of functionality, capability, and price, and at some point, aesthetics do (IMHO) come into play.

Friendly wrote:I'm having a hard time to find that rationale beyond the Silvia for a SB and the Vivaldi II for a DB . . .

Now you've lost me, since the Silvia and the Vivaldi II are not interchangeable. The former is a pourover SBDU consumer machine; the latter is a plumbed-in DB prosumer machine. The capabilities of one are not equal -- nor do they even come close -- to the other. So why are you looking at these two? What exactly do you want from a machine?

Also, I honestly and sincerely believe you are incorrect when you say there is a consensus surrounding the Silvia and the Vivaldi. I do not think that is true for either machine. I've already discussed -- as has Dan (HB) -- the shortcomings of the Silvia. While it certainly enjoys a large following, one look at the Espresso Machines forum on CG -- as of January 17, 2011 -- shows at least five threads asking for help with their Silvia, or talking about "Silvia woes," and so on.

A lot of people love their Vivaldi II, it's true. And there is a separate forum just for Vivaldi users on the internet. Well, the same is true for the Expobar Brewtus -- a very popular DB with its own user group. Vibiemme Double Domobars? Very popular. Izzo Alex Duetto II? Very popular. So while the Vivaldi II is an excellent machine, and a very popular one, I would personally reject the notion that there is a "universal consensus" that the Vivaldi II is at the top. Indeed, all things being equal -- i.e.: ignoring price -- I don't know of anyone who wouldn't prefer a GS3 to a Vivaldi II.

Friendly wrote: . . . it doesn't seem like there's a peer group that's bought a model or several model's because they've proven themselves to be an outstanding manufacturer/product in the HX market, which is squarely where my budget sits me. that seems to be an anomaly.

IF (and it's a big "if") there is a consensus surrounding a Vivaldi II, then I'd say there's a consensus surrounding the Quick Mill Andreja Premium. But -- again -- I kind of reject the notion to begin with.

Friendly wrote:sure, lots of people prefer Ford over Dodge or visa versa, but there are reviews out there that compare them to one another and site the pro's and con's for the difference and give them grades based on a balanced measure.

And if those reviews were accurate, were they the "universal consensus/gospel truth," no one would buy the pickups that came in second . . . let alone third, fifth, tenth or twenty-fourth!

Friendly wrote:is there anything like that for espresso machines? if so...I seem to have overlooked it.

I would respectfully suggest, Cameron, that a) there are a number of consumer reviews on CG; and b) both here and on CG, there are a number of people who willingly will -- already are! -- giving you advice, opinions, reviews of their own machines, assistance.

Friendly wrote:if it is indeed, they ALL work (like you've mentioned) and it's all based on which one looks/appeals to you the most, then I'll change the way I'm looking for a machine.

OK, let's not miss the FIRST part of what I said . . .

zin1953 wrote:looks is not the primary reason to buy a machine. Functionality, capability, and price are all key factors. But there are usually several machines that will fit your requirements in terms of functionality, capability, and price, and at some point, aesthetics do (IMHO) come into play.

So looks only come into play after you've found the machines that otherwise suit your requirements in a machine.

Friendly wrote:I was rather taken by the Bezzera Medea E61. I had hoped that someone would give counter arguments with products that do a better job with the E61 grouphead, or perhaps do just as good a job for a bit less etc etc etc.

so how about this...the E61 grouphead is a tried/tested/true system and is still in a lot of use today. having read what I've read, I've got the confidence it's something I'd buy without regret/concern. with that in mind, does anyone do a particularly outstanding job with the E61 that makes them a better consideration then the rest of the pack?

Cameron, you are correct that the E61 (invented in 1961) is "a tried/tested/true system and is still in a lot of use today." But it is not the "be all to end all," and very few groups are true E61s. Many of the "E61 groups" in use today are variations -- some proprietary in nature -- on a theme, so to speak, as opposed to the true-to-the-original-patent E61 group. AND as I've already told you, here and here, buying by grouphead isn't the way most people purchase a machine. It's not like ordering the pickup truck with a 6-disc CD changer and a satellite radio, rather than the standard AM/FM and 1 CD player . . .

If you want to read a description of the Bezzera proprietary group versus the Bezzera E61 group, read this post by Jim Schulman . . . or this one . . . or this one. (To point to just three.)

Cheers,
Jason

zin1953 wrote:What exactly do you want from a machine?

Cameron, this is not an idle question. It's the crucial starting point for finding a machine.

1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This speaks to the needed capabilities of the machine.)
2) How many drinks do you envision making at any given time on average? (This speaks to the recovery time necessary for the machine to keep up with your demands.)
3) How many drinks do you envision making during any given week on average? (This speaks to the durability of, and overall workload for, the machine.)
4) How often to you entertain/anticipate having friends/company over that would want espresso drinks? (This speaks to a peak workload/capacity of the machine.)
5) What is your budget for the machine itself, ignoring accessories, grinder(s), etc.? (I am presuming you are still intending to purchase a Baratza Vario for a grinder.)
6) Can you plumb the machine directly into the water supply, or are you looking for a pourover only machine?
7) What else is important to you?

Cheers,
Jason