Now you've lost me, since the Silvia and the Vivaldi II are not interchangeable. The former is a pourover SBDU consumer machine; the latter is a plumbed-in DB prosumer machine. The capabilities of one are not equal -- nor do they even come close -- to the other. So why are you looking at these two? What exactly do you want from a machine?

I was never comparing the Silvia against the Mini Vivaldi II. I was stating that in ALL the reading I've done, the Silvia is often the recommendation put for an inexpensive espresso (milk drinks not being a concern) solutions just as the Mini Vivaldi II as an 'inexpensive' entry into the DB world. so while I've come away with those two impressions, I have no impressions regarding HX machines...which I'm considering for two primary reasons. A) I want milk based espresso drinks and B) it's in my price range.

And if those reviews were accurate, were they the "universal consensus/gospel truth," no one would buy the pickups that came in second . . . let alone third, fifth, tenth or twenty-fourth!

true, but because they put them up against each other and give the pro's and con's of each, people can weigh what's most important to them in a vehicle.

unfortunately for me, I don't have the slightest clue as to what I should be looking for in an espresso machine, aside from the previously stated SB, HX and DB mixed up with the Manual, SAuto, Auto and Super Auto. and that the HX and DB are good for making milk based drinks, if they're important, whereas the SB is not.

are there no definitives? pro's/con's that one should be aware of beyond the boilers and classification?

I appreciate your trying to help me Jason...but your last post is only muddying the waters for me. if people buy a Gaggia or a Silvia for their first...they learn something about their machines and that allows them to find what they want to have in their upgrade to an HX or a DB. I want the same...except I'm not starting with a relatively inexpensive Gaggia or a Silvia, so I don't have the experience that helps me find what I want in my next machine. I 'm skipping that stage entirely and not wasting my money. not that they are a waste, but they will not do milk drinks like an HX/DB, which is a feature I want. what else should I be concerned with if I buy an HX machine? there has to be more to consider for a beginner then just whether they want to make steamed milk...and that's all I've got.

are there peer groups for HX machines like you mentioned there are for DB's? perhaps frequenting some of them will help me with my decision like a Ford Ranger site vs. Dodge Dakota site would help me choose one over the other.

(FWIW, it's the same thing with a La Marzocco GS/3 -- I'd much rather have an LM 1-group Linea.)

why?

Another strategy is to shop by vendor. The site sponsors are listed on the Resources page under Commerce. Try calling one of them, they can help you through your paralysis.

and HB...I've already been to Espressotec in BC here...bought my Vario grinder and Espro Press there on Saturday. no doubt I will go again and talk with them some, to help me through this. I just don't have easy access to their store...minimum 2 hour transit ride for me, being I don't drive, which is why I am using the interwebs.

zin1953 wrote:Cameron, this is not an idle question. It's the crucial starting point for finding a machine.

1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This speaks to the needed capabilities of the machine.)
2) How many drinks do you envision making at any given time on average? (This speaks to the recovery time necessary for the machine to keep up with your demands.)
3) How many drinks do you envision making during any given week on average? (This speaks to the durability of, and overall workload for, the machine.)
4) How often to you entertain/anticipate having friends/company over that would want espresso drinks? (This speaks to a peak workload/capacity of the machine.)
5) What is your budget for the machine itself, ignoring accessories, grinder(s), etc.? (I am presuming you are still intending to purchase a Baratza Vario for a grinder.)
6) Can you plumb the machine directly into the water supply, or are you looking for a pourover only machine?
7) What else is important to you?

Cheers,
Jason

1) I'm used to drinking what my Salton made straight (with cream)...but I've seen now that whatever it made, was never ever an espresso, but a damn strong cup of coffee, which is what I wish to keep. I like cappuccino's, mocha's, and other milk special's that I've had from coffee shops like Starbuck's.
2) two, three, maybe four shots before work, in a 45 minute period. mebe a couple of shots w/decaf when I'm home.
3/4) no clue...I just usually cycled one after the other through my Salton when I had company. no doubt that will go up, when I have a good machine available.
5) I have the Vario already...so my budget, as stated in the beginning is between $1000 - $1500, maybe more, if justifiable. I've only myself and my pocket book to answer to, so the budget could be the sky, aside from my Dutch thriftiness. $1500 seems to be reasonable for a quality HX system. I'm unsure I wish to spend $2500 for a DB.
6) I cannot. I plan on making a coffee bench around the corner from my apartment kitchen, because it's so small. I can consider an under-the-counter reservoir, if justifiable.
7) well, that it looks good, is up there. that it keeps it's value (for when I sell to upgrade) and will work trouble free (recall, I'm all thumbs) with regular & simple maintenance. I don't know enough about these things to have an opinion on what I should be seeking...which is what all my posts are about. trying to find those definitives. I can't define what I want if I don't know what needs to be defined.

Friendly wrote:..... I know for the DB, the cost effective Mini Vivaldi II, is highly recommended for the budget I have. When it comes to HX though, everyone likes what they have, but there's much discord in that everybody usually has something different..... I don't see the same machine being recommended over and over and over, such as the Silvia. sure there's other options, but the Silvia is oft the most recommended SB. why isn't it the same for HX and DB systems?

Some good questions.. that have come from too much ruminating .. I think.. The reason that most users of HX machines recommend their machines, I THINK is this:

Few people would spend over $1000 for their first espresso machine. Realistically, taking into account all the coffee making machines in homes in North America, very few people do at any time. And more often than not, the people who buy the HX and DB machines have done so as their second espresso machine purchase if not their third. Now I have no data to support this, and so it is just an impression I have from hanging around with the other patients in this asylum for ten years.

So, you have these folks with a good amount of experience at making espresso at home, who have been toiling over an "entry level" machine like the Gaggias, Rancilio Silvia, etc. These machines take a lot of attention and control of parameters to turn out good espresso. They do so in a very narrow set of parameters. When these people take their experience and knowledge and apply it to a high-end "prosumer" machine they tend to be able to quickly adapt to it because, for a lot of reasons, are better. They make it easier to get good results, and can get great results far more often.

So that is, to some extent, why you see generally positive comments from folks about their HX and DB machines. I am one of them. 6½ years with a Silvia and Rocky, and then to a high-end HX machine and professional grinder. You can read the entire diatribe of 100+ bloggy chapters on my website.

So some of the most important things to check are those which are important to you:
- Reservoir or plumber?
- HX or DB?
- Does it please your aesthetic senses?
- Will it fit where you want to put it?
- Will SWMBO like it?
- Who will service it?
- Do you really need to sleep?
- Do the complaints of current owners about the machines apply to you?
- Should you ever count to four when using the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

Randy G. wrote:- Should you ever count to four when using the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

Ah, yes. I forgot to ask Cameron that one!

thou shalt not count past 3!