LeoZ wrote:is this a fair comparison, with over a $1500 difference in price?

I drive an acura, im willing to bet if i spent double on a car, id be happier.

I'm not really trying to say that you must get a GS3 to be happy. What I am saying is that the ability to have considerably more steam power and the ability to pull shots simultaneously is what turns serving coffee for guests from work, to enjoyment.

It sounds like others on here have made an excellent job of breaking down what makes for better steam power. A huge boiler, and whatever. I don't have experience on those machines, but it sounds like they could do the job with much less money.

But if you had $7000 to spend on your espresso machine, I would say go for the La Marzocco GS3 and a Super Jolly and invite the neighborhood.

Thanks for all the info. It's been really helpful. However, if the boiler size is the kicker, then shouldn't the VBM be the best? According to Stefanos espresso care, the VBM has a 2.7 liter boiler, Chris's Coffee says the Anita has 1.6 liter, and the vivaldi II has a 2.5 liter.

One quick question regarding the VBM, Stefano's Espresso care rates the boiler at 2.7 liters while 1st-line has it rated at 1.8 liters. Does Stefano's just have a newer version?

Thanks again all, it's been really helpful.

The Domobar Super has a 2.7 liter boiler and a 3.8 liter water reservoir. I was thinking 3 liter for some reason but was mistaken. I had the heat exchanger capacity size somewhere. I will have to look for that email. And yes, the Domobar Super is a super steamer just behind the Elektra A3 but way above the 1.5-1.8 liter machines.

mlc85 wrote:Thanks for all the info. It's been really helpful. However, if the boiler size is the kicker, then shouldn't the VBM be the best? According to Stefanos espresso care, the VBM has a 2.7 liter boiler, Chris's Coffee says the Anita has 1.6 liter, and the vivaldi II has a 2.5 liter.

Well, keep in mind the Elektra has a 6.0L boiler, the Cimbali Junior has a boiler of D/T 2.25L, and the Vivaldi II is 2.5L -- all need to be plumbed-in, however. Be careful, though: the mini-Vivaldi, which is a pourover model, only has a 1.2L boiler!

mlc85 wrote:One quick question regarding the VBM, Stefano's Espresso care rates the boiler at 2.7 liters while 1st-line has it rated at 1.8 liters. Does Stefano's just have a newer version?

Mason, they carry the same machine, and I cannot explain the difference in information. The manufacturer's website -- http://www.lavibiemme.it/ -- DOES say it has a 2.7L boiler, so I'd go with that figure. Also, this does not need to be plumbed . . .

Cheers,
Jason

There are actually a few things that control the steaming ability.

The size of the boiler
The size of the tip
The pressure of the boiler before you start steaming
The capacity of the heater.

A bigger boiler and more pressure means you can steam more before the boiler cools off enough to run out of steam. A big enough heater insures you won't ever run out of steam, even with a small boiler.

And lastly, a bigger boiler means that you're less likely to see the effect of filling the boiler with cold water while steaming.

And the size of the tip controls how fast the steam is used up.

Ira

I have used a Vivaldi II for just over 1 year and have never run out of steam. Having the rotary pump and plumbing in the machine have both been great advancements that I would never want to go back from. If there is any way to plumb your machine in I would work to do it.

I am currently watching a friend have to work very hard to master her new VBM and I am confident that it was substantially faster for me to master the VII. This is just an observation; I have never used an HX machine.

Mark

having jumped from my Pasquini to the plumbed in Elektra
if we are making say 6 or more milk drinks the one thing also is the time it takes to steam the elektra just screams and is done very quickly the pasquini easily took 3x as long and it is considered a decent machine

so out running the machine like my pasquini was on a curve the first few were not so bad but the 3rd and 4th and more would start taking a touch longer ? I imagine as the boiler tried to catch up since it was not as much amp going into it

I dont think I could ever outrun the elektra the pasquini you can outrun and have to sit back and let it catch back up

also having the plumbed in drain and water is nice so there is no pause for refilling or mess and time for dumping the trays out (some have large trays but you still have to dump sometime)

so whatever you get if its possible get a plumbed in unit that alone is a time saver to get back to guests
and having a machine that can steam fast like the Elektra or Domobar Super is also nice
of course each one of these comes at a higher price

when I had my old esro profi the thing would slow me down and it became a chore !!!
also when I entertain and am pulling drinks I never had to worry once I got the pasquini as I am usually with friends and talking story in between so in real world the pasquini never slowed me down even though it is slower than my current Elektra if I had known how fast and how consistent the Elektra is over the Pasquini I would have done the upgrade sooner since my morning ritual is so so so so so much faster now the time savings alone is worth it for my daily life
again when I am partying with friends its not a big deal

but again real world I was only doing more than 4 one or two days a week
if I was doing 6 or more drinks 3x a week I would really really try to spring for a machine like the Domobar or if you can swing the extra funds the elektra would be nice in the long run of things

just my thoughts

MDL wrote:I am currently watching a friend have to work very hard to master her new VBM and I am confident that it was substantially faster for me to master the VII. This is just an observation; I have never used an HX machine.

Mark

The HX should be no different than a DB or single boiler in technique.

Interesting though as most people I sell the VBM to can learn to make great micro-foam with the VBM stock out of the box in one 10 minute training session. One. Seriously...One. The VBM has got to be one of the easiest machines to make white paint thick foamy milk on I have ever used.

My quick and dirty instructions.....and with one or two demos on the technique, they pick it up quickly (Cannonfodder's videos above are fantastic visual training tools and show perfectly).

1) Start with very cold milk/pitcher
2) Place hand on side of pitcher (for temperature guesstimating).
3) With tip just below suface of milk, "rip" the milk just until you feel the pitcher get warm (once this technique/sound is figured out, the rest is easy)
4) Drop the tip deeper into the milk, finding a placement that generates the best turbulence to mix the milk
5) Mix until the pitcher is too hot to touch the palm of your hand on for more than 1 second (if you have tough hands), or until you hear the "deeper" rumble pitch change....use a thermometer if needed.
6) bang, swirl....see the nice thick white paint...pour.

Grant wrote:Interesting though as most people I sell the VBM to can learn to make great micro-foam with the VBM stock out of the box in one 10 minute training session. One. Seriously...One. The VBM has got to be one of the easiest machines to make white paint thick foamy milk on I have ever used.

Ditto, except I don't sell the machine. NO ONE who knows how to steam milk has failed to make great foam first time on my Vibiemme. Comments like "Wow! This machine has a lot more power than my ..." or "Man! That's FAST!" are common.

Like so many things in espresso, simple math governs results. Evalutating machines 2½+ years ago, I built a load spreadsheet and entered manufacturer specs. It was immediately obvious that some machines are not capable of making consecutive espresso and milk drinks suitable for a medium sized dinner party. IIRC, the short list included the Vibiemme Domobar Super, Andreja Premium, Vivaldi and Brewtus II. AT THE TIME, Expobar reliability issues disqualified BII. The Viv is just not a face I can live with. The Vibiemme out weights the Andreja by 50%, just as a Mercedes outweighs the same size Toyota.

The Vibiemme HX engineers got it right and the barista is the limiting factor in cranking out milk drinks.

Well alas, I was going to buy the espresso machine after summer ended, and I had my heart set on a VBM. However, they are now $1900 , and I simply cannot afford that. Any other options in the ~1500 max range? I guess the anita is the only real contender? Is the spring for an Andreja worth it?

I thought a lot about it, and I usually do the shot, then milk. Rinse repeat. How good is the Anita when you pull a shot + steam at the same time for a small 6 ounce cappa?

Ahh how I wish the dollar wasn't so weak