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HX/E61 pros/cons (~$1K loose budget)

Postby howardk on Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:16 pm

For some context, here's our @home coffee situation:

Wife & I currently pull 6 - 10 shots/day, at least once back to back. Typically once per weekend, we'll have guests over as well. Wife (& most guests) generally drink Capps/Lattes, whereas I *try* to stick to straight shots, Americanos, or Machiattos the way they poured them for me in Italy- truly just a dash of foam (stained). I say "try" because our current setup is really no better than the local *$, and has had me saving to upgrade since the summer. That said, I've resisted pulling the trigger this summer (with perhaps a $500 - $700 budget) b/c I'd prefer to upgrade once and not need to do so again for more than a few years. Essentially, the choice I made was to skip the Silvia (or similar SB) upgrade, and keep saving to set aside a more reasonable amount and get into the HX game.

I've lurked off and on, here and CG primarily, and well understand the concept of grinder being more important than machine. I believe I've settled on a Baratza Vario, in part b/c I can't seem to justify the extra $$ on a SJ, M4 or Mini. A Vario seems to be more than a solid partner to any of the $1K HX/E61 machines I'll settle on, so why not put the extra $$ saved by skipping the SJ into the machine? At first, I assumed grinder > machine would seem to argue for spending the extra dough there, but I guess it's really "$ over replacement" that matter. To me, there's a bigger difference in $1K+ and $1K- in machines than there is in the grinders I researched, and the dollars would provide more return for me by going into the machine purchase. Does this argument make sense?

Assuming it does, and nobody really steers me down the path of choosing the higher priced grinder, I have a loose budget of $1K - $1200 left to spend on the machine. All in, I'd like to stay below $1500, but again, my primary concern is not skimping now and feeling the need to upgrade again. I'm also very willing to consider a gently used machine, given it came from a credible source (either trade-in @ someone like Chris' Coffee, or from a reputable HB/CG community member), so some of the machines I list below I'm aware may be slightly north of the $1200 cap.

Here's the machines I'm checking out (sorted by cheapest to priciest, imho):

    Oscar by Nuova Simonelli
    Bezzera BZ07 (w/ or w/o PID)
    Expobar Office Pulser
    Fiorenzato Bricoletta
    Quickmill Anita
    Vibiemme Domobar Junior

Before I started looking at machines specifically, I imagined I'd want to settle on:

    an E61 grouphead, because I want something forgiving both due to my inexperience, and my wife's lack of patience. Given she'll only occasionally pull her own shots, and mostly then for milk drinks, I still want her to have a quality shot as a result of her efforts, something she does not have in our current setup now.
    electronic semi-auto machines, for ease of use (and again, the wife's patience level), I assumed lever-activated/mechanical semi-auto's were out, although I'm not sure my assumption that lever-activated semi-auto's are more complex to operate is accurate.

Where I'd like help from the community @ large is plusses or minuses that I can use to weed down my list to 1 or 2 choices.

To me, there's a natural divide between the 1st three, and the next three both in price and specs - top 3 are < $1200 new, bottom 3 are not; top 3 are not "full" E61 brew group, bottom 3 are. I suppose the latter matters more than the former, as I can always save a bit longer or find a used machine to offset price.

WLL has a great article on the full brew group of the E61, and left me with two questions:

    1) Do all machines that have full E61 brew groups have manual lever activation (like I believe the Anita, Bricoletta and Domobar Jr do)?
    2) If so, are the benefits of E61 overstated if you opt for the electric semi-auto's that "just" have the E61 grouphead?

I think those are the key questions to help me rule out options and make a decision. If in fact all full E61s are lever activated, and those are in fact more cumbersome to operate, AND yet, the benefits in terms of proper temperature control and forgiveness apply even in machines with only E61 groupheads (is that IFFF?!) it would seem my best choices are actually the BZ07 or the Expobar. The Bezzera has a grouphead in my naive understanding which appears similar to E61, their "thermostat controlled" 58mm grouphead. In the case of the Expobar, some sites claim it's E61 (it's on Teme's list also), while others say it's "like" E61. I've also read some troubling reports of shotty craftsmanship, and parts needing replacement.

Any help, words of wisdom, or advice to stop studying and start purchasing :) are greatly appreciated.
howardk
 
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Joined: Dec 23, 2010
Location: Boston, MA

Postby oknewell on Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:08 am

Seems like information overload doesn't it? Did you ever consider the Bezzera BZ02 Full Automatic? 1st line has them on sale for less than 1K. I've been told that they're more or less the same as the Pasquini Livia 90, which is tried and true. I've met people that have had the pasquini, and then upgraded to "better" machines (e.g. the Izzo Alex Duetto II) and have been rather disappointed when the quality didn't go up and actually wasn't as good. Which obviously is very subjective statement, but leads me to believe that once you have your machine and grinder figured out, you could be pulling great shots on most high end machines. So, my advice, go with a tried and true machine where you can get good support if something does go wrong. All the best to you!
oknewell
 
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Joined: Aug 02, 2010
Location: Camarillo, CA

Postby ericg on Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:55 am

I went through this particular song and dance last year. My best new years advice isn't far from what you've already figured out.

Get something good; get something that allows you as a technician to grow as far as you require.

Superautos are IMO, no fun. They take everything out of your hands and while producing mostly predictable results; are complicated to tweak and fix; will never give you the quality or satisfaction that an espresso machine worth every appliance in your kitchen combined justifies.

The only rationale for spending this much on a machine, is to get a lot of learning and a (damn) good hobby out of it. This Christmas I hauled my Vetrano, stepless M4, flojet, scale, and every other damned thing to my parents house and I managed to teach my dad to pull a half-decent shot in 2 days. If your wife has the sense to check the oil in her car once or twice a month, I would bet you could teach her to use a semi-auto in under a week; maybe two.

The lever thing, don't sweat it. It's not any more than flipping a switch, on or off (there is a sort-of halfway to preinfuse, but that's a later debate). You pull the black knob on the lever 90 degrees upwards and it starts to pull your shot. When that shot begins to blonde in colour, you push it back to the starting point. Simple as that.

I got my Vetrano and my M4 used through the 'other' forum with everything for maybe 15-1600 tops and I won't ever (ok maybe the grinder) 'really' have to upgrade. Plus the Anita or Vetrano look so very swanky, no wife is really going to object to them once they've found a home. The E61 machines aren't terribly different once you get used to them, any you can find will probably meet your needs. Look at reviews.

Have to love the E61, nothing is more satisfying than 15 lbs of chromed brass with a quick-and-easy flip lever. Get the thermocouple in the grouphead, it's an awesome way to tweak your brew and conquer the flushing routine for you and your wife. The semi-auto lever thing is not a problem, don't even worry about it (at least per my experience in the Anita/Vetrano).

Spending this much requires a proportional investment of learning and therefore overall satisfaction with the end product every morning. Getting a semi-auto E61 will let you grow as barista and really get down and dirty in our land of crazy coffee. Suddenly, finding good beans under 7days out of roast and finding just the right grind will become very very important to you. If they aren't, this isn't the land for you, but some other coffee geek will buy them off you for near-retail.

If it is, get a bottomless PF, get the thermocouple, learn from us; read the forums.
ericg
 
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Joined: Apr 28, 2010
Location: Victoria BC


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