This is my first post at HB, though I've been lurking for quite a while. Reading HB has definitely helped me improve my extraction technique since I first started making espresso at home. I recently turned to HB for advice in upgrading my grinder (ended up with a Vario and am very, very pleased). My ideas about coffee are regularly turned on their heads while reading these forums. So thanks for all of that.

I have a simple question that might not have a simple answer. How much better should I reasonably expect my shots to be if I were to upgrade from my current Gaggia Evolution to a mid-priced HX?

Reading these forums regularly gives me the compulsion to upgrade, but I keep talking myself out of it using the arguments that follow.

I know I'm working with a very entry-level machine, but I've always suspected (perhaps mistakenly) that the espresso machine is less important the coffee, the grinder, and my technique.

I've been using the machine for two and a half years, and I think I understand how to work with it pretty well by now. I can almost always get what I want out of it. I think I've mastered the technical challenges of working with a cheap machine (small reservoir, temp surfing, etc.). I have a good sense for which coffees the machine likes, even if they don't match my personal preferences (for some reason it loves Black Cat while I'm more of an Ecco Espresso fan). I never need to send a shot down the sink any more, and I only end up with what I consider to be a less than great shot when my beans get too old or I'm negligent regarding the temp cycle. I seldom walk into a cafe expecting to get a macchiato that I prefer to what I make for myself every morning and afternoon (got a nice surprise at Temple in Sacramento last weekend; their current SO offering is great). Perhaps I'm too comfortable with my setup, which is why I've waited so long to upgrade.

I think I understand the benefits that a decent HX (I'm thinking one of the Quick Mills or a Salvatore) would provide: better temp control, easier to switch from brewing to steaming, greater consistency. Admittedly, I sometimes think it would be nice to be able to control _precisely_ the brew temperature. Otherwise, the major benefits, as I understand them, are slightly less than compelling for my own personal home use: twice daily ristretto macchs for myself, twice weekly lattes for my gf, and the occasional capp for guests.

Am I ignorant in my belief that my espresso is about as good as I can hope for? My greatest fear is that I will spend $1500 on a machine and my coffee won't get noticeably better (and perhaps I'll even miss the quirks of my old machine). I'm way too poor to deal with that kind of buyer's remorse.

Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Owen

(Sorry if this post contains too much information/too many asides).

An HX machine is a lot more consistent shot to shot than the Gaggia, so your average shot will improve noticeably. The best shots probably not so much, since when the stars align, the Gaggia will pull shots at the bulls eye temperature and pressure.

Consistency is under appreciated. If you can get consistent shots, you can dial in the dose, grind, and any machine variable you wish to control until you get the taste balance you want, and then repeat it indefinitely. The Vario gets you to that point on the grinder side; any of the good HX or DB machines in the 1K and up range will do it on the machine side.

This means while you probably won't get the same definition and body as on a 10K set up, you will be able to dial in the same flavors at the same balance. The Gaggia can't do this, because it isn't consistent enough.

Sounds like you are already pretty happy with what you have. That being said, I agree with another-jim that a step up will give you more and easier consistency. Easier may be the key word.

If you are into the "ritual" of making great shots, you would probably add to your pleasure with an upgrade to a good HX or for me, a DB with PID like the Brewtus. The visuals provided by some of the higher end machines with some type of temp probe (eric's for instance on a HX) or a PID on a DB, and brew pressure gauge help in refining your technique (kind of like having a tachometer) and make it more fun...like driving a smooth 4 on-the-floor vs automatic transmission.

What Jim said in regards to consistency is echoed in my personal experience. I went from a PID'd Silvia to Vibiemme Domobar Super (and later sold Rocky and got the Mazzer Kony). Even with the Rocky, the consistency of the espresso increased dramatically with the Vibiemme. With the stepless grinder update I can now make minor changes in grind and taste it in the cup. As the coffee gets towards the end of a batch (about a week to ten days), I can adjust the grind to match. That was virtually impossible previously. Bottom line, my average (yet drinkable) shots from the Vibiemme are on par with the top 5% of the shots from Silvia, and none of even the best shots from Silvia could compete with most of the shots I get from the Vibiemme.

No guarantee that you will experience the same results. We are talking about a food product, so all this is subjectively based, but it is one more data point...

One more data point . . .

I used a Gaggia Coffee (think Gaggia Classic, but without the 3-way solenoid) for some 25 years. It was paired with a Gaggia MDF grinder, and I made some pretty gosh darned good cappuccinos and lattes in the 1980s and 1990s. I was very happy. But great straight espresso shots eluded me. As local cafés improved their output, my frustration increased from a pinprick of annoyance to something truly serious, and I upgraded in 2006 to an HX machine(s) and a better grinder(s). Today, I cannot believe I was happy with what I was making (on average) with my Gaggia. (And yet those drinks are still better than most you are served in cafés and restaurants!)

Of course, having better equipment forced me to improve my technique, too, which had no doubt gotten sloppy over the years, but in my defense I'll simply say that back in the 1980s when I first started down this road to "Espresso Nirvana," there were no internet resources like HB . . .

The key, of course, is YOU. Nothing works without the fourth "M." But -- yes! -- a decent HX will certainly results in significant (and consistent) improvement.

Cheers,
Jason

zin1953 wrote:The key, of course, is YOU. Nothing works without the fourth "M." But -- yes! -- a decent HX will certainly results in significant (and consistent) improvement.

Yes, but, the importance of manno technique is greatly exaggerated. I know, we all like to elevate our egos, but decent espresso making technique can be acquired quickly and easily with little practice and paying attention to details.

Only crappy equipment requires voodoo technique.

Of greater importance, or perhaps harder to develop, is the palate. Developing espresso palate is a lot like learning foreign language. At beginning, when listening to language you have not been exposed to you cannot discern individual words and sentences. Everything is just big blob of sounds because your ear has not been trained. So it is palate for espresso. At beginning everything is just bitter then with time and lot of tasting it develops.

So to original poster, you have probably developed a taste, so to say, for your espresso out of your machine. Getting better machine likely will not result in improvement for your taste immediately rather that preference might develop over time.

Thanks for your input.

I think it's becoming clear that my espresso _will_ get slightly better, at least on average, if I upgrade to the right machine. It's now just a matter of saying goodbye to the Gaggia while I pick one out.

ok_owen wrote:I have a simple question that might not have a simple answer. How much better should I reasonably expect my shots to be if I were to upgrade from my current Gaggia Evolution to a mid-priced HX?

... I never need to send a shot down the sink any more, and I only end up with what I consider to be a less than great shot when my beans get too old or I'm negligent regarding the temp cycle.

... Perhaps I'm too comfortable with my setup, which is why I've waited so long to upgrade.

... My greatest fear is that I will spend $1500 on a machine and my coffee won't get noticeably better (and perhaps I'll even miss the quirks of my old machine). I'm way too poor to deal with that kind of buyer's remorse.
.

I was/am EXACTLY in your shoes. I have used my Gaggia for a while coupled with a commercial Nuova Simonelli MDX Grinder. The grinder did make a huge difference when I got her. So like you, I had some serious desire to upgrade (you know the deal.. to "bring you up to the next level") after reading so much here at HB. I just happened upon a Pasquini Livia last night on craigslist for a $150. I know right, how can any espresso lover pass that deal of the century up. So I bought it, and have been fine tuning it all day today. Shots still taste the same to me, albeit the machine does work better. Making cappuccinos (for my wife) is way easier, the steam throughput is a dream compared to the Gaggia. So although I am ecstatic over the machine, its looks, easy of use, great deal I got, and its steaming performance, I have to honestly say the espressos don't taste much different to me. Maybe I haven't seen a huge difference because I've only been on the Pasquini 1 day, I don't know??

So in summary, here's my 2 cents. If you're cheap/frugal like me, I think you may be somewhat disappointed by not seeing a marked difference in quality from a "better" machine (that you dropped some serious coin on). By the way, the Gaggias are GOOD machines, and do make quality espresso if you know how to work with them.
Best of luck to you.

oknewell, thanks for the advice. It's helped me to be more patient in my search for the right upgrade.

My current dilemma is that I had just decided to PID my Gaggia and save up for a DB (the La Spaziale Vivaldi) when I noticed someone selling a La Valentina on craigslist for a very reasonable price. I'm very tempted to write a check today, in large part because of the extremely favorable review of the La Valentina at HB.

So what's the better value: A La Valentina at a great discount now (assuming it's in perfect condition) or the Vivaldi in a few months (with a much-loved cheapo Gaggia during the waiting period)? If I go for the La Valentina now, will I still want to get a DB down the road?

There is no correct answer to your question. It depends on you. There are lots of threads on HX vs DB. I don't view a DB (in the under 4-5k range) as an upgrade over an HX but some do. Short of a Speedster (which is out of my price range) if I were to upgrade it would be to another HX, but then again I don't have any desire to do that either unless I found an absurd deal on an Elektra A3. I think it is worth looking at what machines the moderators who have written reviews of machines use and they have both, but there are certainly as many HX users in the group as DB users. There is no doubt, however, that the Vivaldi is a great machine, too, and I doubt you'd regret that purchase either.

By the way going back to your original question, yes in my opinion I think the impact of a good HX over something like a Gaggia is huge.