A (hopefully) different kind of newbie buying advice thread

[pcmoore]

Hello Everyone,

I do realize that this time of year brings a wave of requests from people looking for help selecting the "best" machine for a given budget, and I understand that this can get annoying after a while as it clutters the forums with nearly identical topics. Even though this is yet another newbie buying advice thread, I hope it will be a departure from the usual first post and provide some good discussion for those of you kind enough to comment. As an aside, I am impressed by those of you that remain polite and attempt to offer helpful buying advice despite the requester's lack of legwork; there are always those regulars who rant, but I appreciate the patience of those who remember that everyone is new to this at one point in time ...

For me, that time is now, or rather this year, and while I've been lurking here for the past few months, I do have a few questions that I hope the brain trust here will be willing to comment on. However, first some background to provide a bit of context.

A couple of years ago, due to office closures, I was forced to start working from my home; one of the many things that accompanied this change was the shift from getting my coffee at the office or local donut shop to making it at home. This was fine, but since my personality tends towards the "what if?", after a few months I was starting to experiment with different routines when it came to my coffee. This held me for a few more months and then I started to play with the "espresso" side of our forgettable steam-toy combo unit, while at the same time turning to our good friend, The Internet, in search of information and advice. Well, by virtue of the face that I'm here asking questions about a new machine, I think you all know how the rest of the story goes

Getting back to the present day, I am in the market for both a machine and a grinder. Having read the "grinder first!" advice here and a few other places, I started looking for a grinder first (and actually almost bought one a couple of months ago, until I learned that most retailers provide a discount on grinders when purchasing a new espresso machine) and quickly found myself deciding on the Vario. I know there are a few very vocal opponents of the Vario, but in general it seems to be well received by most and the support seems top notch. Unfortunately, my espresso machine decision has not been nearly as quick or as certain. Having slowly made the mental leaps from small single boilers, to the single boiler with a thermoblock and then finally to the great debate between double boilers and HXs, I think I've settled upon an HX as the "right" choice for me (I currently drink mostly milk based drinks, but I am open to drinking more straight espresso when I get a machine that actually makes good tasting espresso). Even then, once I made the HX decision I still wasn't quite certain on which HX was the right fit; there were so many "good" choices between Quick Mill, Rocket, Vibiemme, Alex, etc. that I wasn't quite what I wanted to place on my counter. However, the past few weeks I've been learning towards Quick Mill's Andreja; the popularity of the machine and the wealth of information available seems like it is an obvious choice.

Which finally brings me around to my questions, that is if anyone is still reading this Looking at Chris' Coffee Service website, there a few options that I could use some guidance on:

* E61 Group Thermometer / Eric's Adapter

This seems like a nice tool both for those of us looking to establish a good flushing technique as well as those wanting to experiment with different flushes and temperatures. Since I know I'll be in the former group and I suspect the latter group eventually, this seems like a "win" for me. However, do I risk developing any bad habits using this from the start, i.e. could Eric's Adapter be considered a "crutch"?

* Pressure Stat

From my lurking and searching, I know the Sirai pstat is the holy grail of pressure stats and the Andreja is one of the machines that can fit the Sirai's "big bones" inside the case. However, I'm slightly wary of the noise generated by the mechanical relay inside the pstat and would like to avoid the Sirai for my initial purchase (I can always put one in later). This leaves with the OEM pstat, which I assume is either a CEME or MATER, or the Jaeger upgrade. Unfortunately, I simply haven't found a lot of information on the Jaeger pstat, sure, there are a few topics here on HB about the Jaegar but not enough to clearly sway me to one side or another. What are your current thoughts on the Jaeger? Is it worth the few bucks to have it installed over the OEM unit or are they on par with each other?

* Plumbing Changes in the "New" Andreja

I just recently noticed that on Chris' product page for the Andreja there is a new picture showing the inside of the machine (as opposed to the older shot showing the Sirai) and it appears that the plumbing (as well as the insulation) has changed slightly. As previously mentioned, I am no expert, but it looks like the OPV have been moved/changed (perhaps similar to the new Anita but downward facing?) and the solenoid which controls the water flow to the HX/boiler is now alongside the boiler as opposed to underneath. Does anyone
have any additional information on these changes that they could share?

* Hinged Lid

Finally, I noticed that the newly tweaked Anita has a hinged lid which allows the reservoir to be filled without removing the warming tray; does anyone know if this tray is available for the Andreja? Considering the commonalities between the Quick Mill machines I would like to think this is possible, but I just don't know.

Looking back now at this post, I now realize it has grown much larger than I intended, especially the pre-questions bits, but I suppose that is the danger of a lazy Sunday morning with winter outside Any advice or commentary you can provide on the questions above or even just my choice of grinder/machine would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[HB]

However, do I risk developing any bad habits using this from the start, i.e. could Eric's Adapter be considered a "crutch"?

For E61 HX espresso machines, Eric's adapter removes all the guesswork since they are "mixer" types. I elaborated on this point just yesterday in another thread, excerpted below for your reference:

Having written a number of reviews, I've come to recognize differing degrees of how heat exchanger-centric a particular espresso machine is. My shorthand for these distinctions are:

• Dragon - key characteristics are lots of flash boiling, fast recovery, nearly zero thermal memory, and slowly rising brew temperature profile. Simply stated, after the cooling flush, the heat exchanger output is the brew temperature. Examples include the Elektra Semiautomatica, Gaggia Achille, and the Olympia Maximatic.
• Mixer - key characteristics are modest flush, medium to slow recovery, considerable thermal memory, and initial rising then falling brew profile. Unlike the Dragon, the Mixer's brew temperature isn't determined solely by the output of the heat exchanger. Other factors, such as cool water mixing via an heat exchanger injector, backflow from a thermosyphon, and the attenuating effect of a heavy grouphead temper the final brew temperature. Examples include HX E61 espresso machines like the Vibiemme Domobar Super and Quickmill Vetrano.
• Agnostic - key characteristics are small, fixed volume flush or none at all, and long thermal memory. Careful tuning of a Mixer with tweaks in the design can produce an espresso machine that is heat exchanger in name only. Examples include the Cimbali Junior and Nuova Simonelli Aurelia.

As the last entry suggests, these categories are not immutable. With minor modifications or boiler pressure adjustments coupled with barista techniques, an espresso machine that naturally fits in one category can morph into one of the other categories (e.g, Ian's HX Heaven or 1½ Boiler).

The practical benefit of recognizing the characteristics of heat exchangers is the time saved learning the correct brew temperature management scheme (**). For example, I recognized the Maximatic as a Dragon by flushing the group until the water stopped flash boiling, waiting a minute or so, then repeating; it was fully recovered. The Elektra Semiautomatica is also a Dragon with a slightly heavier grouphead, but they share the same flush-n-go technique for targeting the brew temperature.

In short, for the "Dragon" HX espresso machines, Eric's adapter offers little advantage. For mixers, it's a must have. For agnostics, it's useful only if you're into sub-degree temperature adjustments.

Is it worth the few bucks to have it installed over the OEM unit or are they on par with each other?

The Sirai does "clack" a bit. The other pressurestats I'm familiar with (CEME, MATER, Jaegar) are silent. Personally I would go with the stock pressurestat and worry about upgrades when the original fails (which may be 3+ years down the road).

Does anyone have any additional information on these changes that they could share?

Chris covered this in Newly Designed Quickmill Anita Has Arrived. An exterior adjustment for the over-pressure valve, neat boiler drain, etc. Nice work, indeed; I must give credit to Chris' Coffee Service for listening to their customers and continually improving their products.

...does anyone know if this tray is available for the Andreja?

I suggest e-mailing Chris. As I sometimes joke: "If Chris doesn't reply within an hour, call the morgue because he's dead."

[cafeIKE]

More than 5 years ago, the Andeja was on the short list.

Reasons it didn't make the cut

• OPV on HX outlet
• not true e61 group
• 20lb lighter than Vibiemme
• appearance

Today, I'd buy the new Vibiemme Double Domo in 2011

[HB]

Reasons it didn't make the cut... OPV on HX outlet

For a little background on Ian's point, most espresso machines have the over-pressure valve between the pump and boiler so cold water is returned to the reservoir. The Quickmill models have the OPV located between the heat exchanger and brewhead; Eric Svendson's diagram shows its location:



He elaborates on this design in Want the best espresso on an E61? Use the single basket!:

The Quickmill Andreja and Anita are unique in the home espresso machine market to the extent that the installed OPV is DOWNSTREAM of the heat exchanger (hx). This is intended as a design feature and not a deficiency. The entire output of the Ulka pump (~ 4.33 ml/sec @ 9.0 bar) flows through the hx but only X ml/sec ends up in the cup. Contrast this with an Isomac, Vibiemme, or Giotto, et al where the X that ends up in the cup is the same X that flowed through their hx. Even though the Quickmill machines exhibit a declining temperature profile at the grouphead, the temperature of the water presented to the coffee is pretty darn flat. The reason for this is that the remaining mass of the grouphead in the flowpath downstream of the temperature measuring device does an amazing tempering of the temperatures. HOWEVER, for a "ristretto-ish" double shot on a QM vibe machine, you will see a more rapid decline in temps - its inherent in the beast.

For what it's worth, the HB reviews concluded that each espresso machine produce consistent results. In fact, if you read the reviews carefully, you'll conclude the differences among E61 HX models are maddeningly small.

Reasons it didn't make the cut... not true e61 group

True E61? Not sure what that means. Here's a sketch from the patent:


From E61 Group Espresso Machine: Is its reputation justified?

There's several nearly interchangeable clones of the original E61 grouphead (three I think?); I am not aware of any functional difference.

[cafeIKE]

True E61? Not sure what that means.

Vibiemme traces it's heritage to Faema, the inventor of the e61. It's a small point, but Eddy Merckx rode for Faema about the same time I got my first racing bike and had my first espresso.

[HB]

...Eddy Merckx rode for Faema about the same time I got my first racing bike and had my first espresso.

Oh, I wasn't born yet... though I have reached the age where I get the same "I wasn't born yet" comment from my kid's friends from time-to-time.

[pcmoore]

For E61 HX espresso machines, Eric's adapter removes all the guesswork since they are "mixer" types. I elaborated on this point just yesterday in another thread, excerpted below for your reference: <snip>

In short, for the "Dragon" HX espresso machines, Eric's adapter offers little advantage. For mixers, it's a must have. For agnostics, it's useful only if you're into sub-degree temperature adjustments.

Thanks for the quick and detailed response. It sounds like the group thermometer is pretty much a no brainer.

The Sirai does "clack" a bit. The other pressurestats I'm familiar with (CEME, MATER, Jaegar) are silent. Personally I would go with the stock pressurestat and worry about upgrades when the original fails (which may be 3+ years down the road).

Okay, thanks for the advice.

Chris covered this in Newly Designed Quickmill Anita Has Arrived. An exterior adjustment for the over-pressure valve, neat boiler drain, etc. Nice work, indeed; I must give credit to Chris' Coffee Service for listening to their customers and continually improving their products.

I suggest e-mailing Chris. As I sometimes joke: "If Chris doesn't reply within an hour, call the morgue because he's dead."

I saw the thread on the Anita changes but wasn't sure if those same tweaks carried over to the Andreja as well, but from your comment it sounds like a quick email to Chris is probably the best way to clear things up.

[pcmoore]

More than 5 years ago, the Andeja was on the short list.

Reasons it didn't make the cut

• OPV on HX outlet
• ... <snip>

For a little background on Ian's point, most espresso machines have the over-pressure valve between the pump and boiler so cold water is returned to the reservoir. The Quickmill models have the OPV located between the heat exchanger and brewhead...

I seen this pop up in threads here and elsewhere a few times, but the discussion is almost always centered around the effects of this design decision on particular drinks/techniques. From what I've read, my current thinking is that in general, it is just "different" and not necessarily better or worse; although you could certainly create a circumstance that favors one approach over another. Is this a reasonable conclusion?

Also, why did Quick Mill decide to move the OPV between the HX and the brewhead? If it is a "feature", this would imply that they feel it provides some advantage to the traditional approach. The only thing I can reason is that it may provide a quicker flush and maybe even more consistent temperature at the puck during a "normal" single or double shot (I'm stretching on this last point, but the quicker flushing seems very reasonable given the increased water volume through the HX).

For what it's worth, the HB reviews concluded that each espresso machine produce consistent results. In fact, if you read the reviews carefully, you'll conclude the differences among E61 HX models are maddeningly small.

Yes, thank you (and the rest of the folks on this site) for such good reviews and commentary, they are all very well done. In particular, I think it was this site's review of the Andreja that finally broke my HX stalemate and pushed me towards the Quick Mill.

[cafeIKE]

The position of the OPV in the brew circuit changes the shot profile, as do a host of other variables. At 9 bar, the Ulka pump flows about 130ml over 30s. On a single, that's 100+ ml cooling down the HX AND 100+ ml of 212°F water going back into the reservoir. Pull a handful of shots in short order and ½ liter of boiling water is dumped in the reservoir. Assuming a ½ full reservoir and the machine on for 1 hour, the reservoir is now about 140°F. It's quite a trick for a 40°F variation in feed water to have no effect on the shot profile. The PID Anita performs well with the same OPV arrangement, but the feed water is diluted by a much larger boiler volume compared to the HX.

Heat is the enemy of all things mechanical, so I'd expect seat and seals to wear more rapidly on the Quickmill OPV.

The above may not amount to a hill of beans. OTOH, one two less things to worry about

[pcmoore]

I think I understand the drawbacks of placing the OPV between the HX and the brewhead (thanks for the comments regarding the effect of the heat on the seals/plumbing/etc., not sure why but I hadn't thought of that), but what I'm still trying to understand is what the benefits are of placing the OPV in that location.

There must be some benefit if Quick Mill considers this a "feature", right?