After doing some homework and being totally googled out, I am still left with a few questions...

Like most people looking to buy their first espresso machine I started looking at the very popular Gaggia Classic. Soon enough I was comparing it to the Silvia and read about the CC1. Having already double the cost of the machines I was looking at in a few hours and learnt a ton about PID (an old enemy from university) and temp surfing, I kept searching for the perfect machine for my needs. After reading more and learning about the different type of machines I quickly realized that SBDU wasn't for me and that double boilers were most likely too expensive. I concentrated on Hx machines and learnt about the famous E61.

After evaluating my needs(hard to do when you never owned a machine) and my budget I came up with this:
-I will be making around 3-4 double per day, of which probly 75% will involve milk;
-will most likely never allow ourselves to upgrade, so I must get the best bang for buck while staying under 2k CAD for the machine alone ... Planning on getting a Baratza Vario or a used Hg one if I can find one;
-it can't be plumbed.

Before talking about different models I looked into and why I can't decide what I actually need, I have a few questions.

E61 Hx machines looks very good from a commercial point of view but are they suited for a light use? They appeal to me because they can steam properly and deliver good espresso while being affordable, but if I am only pulling 2-3 shots per session and 1-2 session per day, will the flushes drain the reservoir and fill the tray fast enough to be annoying? Will I gain anything from the E61 head or will it be always too hot to be an advantage?

On the lower end of my budget is the QM Silvano(1275CAD). It has great reviews and most people seem happy with their machine. My only concern is what makes it cheaper than other comparable machines, the steam thermoblock. Since most the drinks we will be making need milk, I don't know if the money saved on the machine will be worth the shortcomings in steam performances. The lack of water wand is also a small, but notable, inconvenience(again, thinking about not having to upgrade in a few years).

On the higher end of the spectrum are the Profitec sisters.
Pro 500(1800CAD): a bit expensive for a Hx, but it has everything you need(other than PID) and the build quality seems to be worth the premium.
Pro 300(1900CAD): I couldn't find too too much on it, but looks like a dependable DB. The boilers are small, but the fast heat up time, PID and relative low cost make it a good contestant.

In the middle of the pack there is multiple machine, all very similar in capabilities (average Hx) and I could really hardly call one a better deal. In that list are QM anita(1900) La nuova Era Cuadra(1700CAD), Rocket Cellini Classic(1700CAD), Expobar Lever Premium(1700CAD, seams overprice up here), Expobar Office Pulser(1330CAD) just to name a few models I have looked at.

Finally, how can I be looking for my first machine without stopping on the BDB(1200CAD)! It offers so much for its price... If nothing breaks it is probably the best thing you could get(I think it looks horrible, but I can live with that). The problem is that it is coming from a big store company and it is filled with electronics...any machine can break,this one as just a bit more that could go wrong and the fix isnt always easy.

So now I am at the point where I want to confirm if a Hx is something I want to get or if I should head toward a BDB or even the unknown Pro 300. I think getting answers to my questions and getting advice from people who are actually using the BDB or any of these Hx, or anyone who has experience with Hx and DB could help me make a better and more educated choice.

I know there is a lot of threads asking "what should I get for X$", but I hope I included enough details and thoughts to help you guys provide a few things to think about or a seal of approval for me and others in my situation seeking some last advice before pulling the trigger.

Cheers,

Max

The BDB and Vario make a great pair. I happen to like the looks of the BDB. The black one looks sharp. The other choices that you mentioned are excellent. I have an HX, and it would serve you well, but I think a DB is what I would choose now.

Due to exchange rates, the Breville Double Boiler (BDB) is a relative deal in Canada now. You can get it for $1200CA - that's what the local kitchen store down the street from my house sells the 920 for http://www.halffullglassware.ca/collect ... ille-920xl (US stores are selling the BDB for $1300US) Many of the machines you quote come to Canada via the US so you are paying 25%-30% extra for no reason at all.

The Pro 300 at $1900CA is a perfect example of exchange-rate chicanery. IIRC, it was $1650 MSRP a few months ago. $1800CA for a Pro 500 is last year's price for that machine (Last year's MSRP was $2k); so the machines are probably leftovers from last year's shipment - good price. Mind you, if you want an E61 HX, idrinkcoffee is probably still selling Magister Stella Pro's at a much lower price.

As an aside, two-three shots a session, two-three times a day, is what Elektra Micro Casa's are designed to do. However, do you want a motorcycle, or do you want a car? Personally, I would never get an E61 for such an application, as the warm-up time is too long, and my espresso breaks are not regular enough to benefit from a timer. I would (and did) go for an electrically-heated group, like various Bezzera's, or, of course, the feature-laden BDB - which has an electrically-heated group and a timer.

Of course, it all depends on the grinder. I would budget at least the same amount as the machine for the grinder - well, that's the 'rule' - myself, I would budget more for the grinder, unless the grinder is the Pharos or an HG one.

Good luck!

If you are interested in the Silvano, but don't like the thermoblock and absence of hot water, you might take a look at the Lelit PL60. It looks a lot like the Silvano but is a true double boiler and has a hot water tap. Like other Lelit machines, it's very reasonably priced in the US (about the same as the BDB), but I don't know about its availability in Canada.

If i were you with your budget i would definitely consider expobar brewtus DB.

I had the Breville BES900XL and the Baratza Vario and was quite happy with them both until I got upgrade-itis. I gave the BDB to my son and the Vario to my wife for pourover brewing and bought the Bezzera Strega TOP and the HG-one grinder. I've gotten tired of the extra effort of using these two devices and have my HG-one listed on Ebay. I have ordered the Breville BES920XL and another Vario and I doubt if my old and untrained palate can tell the difference. I'll keep the Strega because it is a neat machine. I did not like the HG-one. Since I roast light I had to clamp the unit to the counter and hated the effort required to grind a double. The BES920XL comes with a two year warrantee so that gives me confidence about its reliability. Looking at Amazon there are a number of detractors but they all claim the Breville service is pretty good. In two years I'll probably upgrade to something else barring that my doctor tells me to stop drinking coffee.
A further note the BES900XL did not steam as fast as the Strega (which is an HX) but it allowed me to texture perfectly.
I hope this helps.

http://caffetech.com/espresso/home/trad ... _anita.jpg[/img]

Gaius wrote:If i were you with your budget i would definitely consider expobar brewtus DB.

In Canada the machine cost 2400CAD...

Crispy wrote:If you are interested in the Silvano, but don't like the thermoblock and absence of hot water, you might take a look at the Lelit PL60. It looks a lot like the Silvano but is a true double boiler and has a hot water tap.

I don't think it is available here

baldheadracing wrote:Many of the machines you quote come to Canada via the US so you are paying 25%-30% extra for no reason at all.

This is why I didn't pay too much attention to most Hx E61, The pro 500 seams to be a bit more fairly price (comparing to its cost in the US) despite its higher cost.

baldheadracing wrote:As an aside, two-three shots a session, two-three times a day, is what Elektra Micro Casa's are designed to do. However, do you want a motorcycle, or do you want a car?

It is a nice looking machine! But @1800CAD, I think this would probably get me discouraged before I give it a fair chance... More of a car kind of guy.

I think I will give the BDB a try, a bit more reading and hopefully there will be a shot fired by the end of the week! (still trying to rule out the E61 Hx)

Ou dear, thats dreadful price. In europe, you get a brewtus with vibration pump for cca 1100eur and rotary for 1450eur (but it does not have a built in reservoir)..

I have sent you a PM with a direct dealer from italy, ask them how is with shipping to Canada, maybe they could it ship it to you for let say 100eur and i know they also stock the US plugs option.

Hi Max. Where in Canada are you located? I could point you to some retailers depending on your location. I'm in the greater Toronto area.

If you're still considering an E61, check out Bezzera. I got my Bezzera Magica from idrinkcoffee, which based on the small price difference from U.S. retailers, leads me to think they deal directly with Bezzera, and not a U.S. middleman.

Idrinkcoffee sells it for 1,899 CAD, while 1st Line in U.S. sells it for 1,699 USD. That's actually cheaper in Canada when factoring the exchange rate.

It's also a steaming beast, considering you're making milk drinks. It's actually overkill for me, since I mostly drink straight shots. But it has a 2.0 liter copper boiler with very quick recovery. I can steam 5oz of soy milk in less than 15 seconds. That's faster than a lot of E61 machines. It's near commercial in its steaming power. And my boiler is only set to 1.0 bar.

Build quality is excellent and so is fit and finish. I bought my machine in person and looked at the usual suspects. (e.g. Rocket, Izzo, Quickmill, Magister, Vibiemme, Profitec etc) and I couldn't see why the Rocket machines, for example, were more expensive. Bezzera seems on par with Profitec's build quality.

Also, I'm no engineer. But when I look inside my machine, it's laid out cleanly and with quality connections and fittings.

Anyway, I'm not pushing my machine. Just saying it flies under the radar and doesn't get as much attention as it probably should in its class.

There's also an open box for 1,699 at idrinkcoffee right now.

As for the BDB. I've never used one to make shots. People say that it's a great value, remarkably temperature stable, and makes great shots. I did look at it in person when researching and couldn't get beyond the plasticky, home appliance feel when touching it. Maybe that's superficial. But I like the more robust aesthetic of a traditional machine. Having said that, I also have a baratza Vario, which is in many ways the grinder equivalent to the BDB. (Although Baratza is a dedicated coffee grinder company, while Breville makes a variety of home appliances). The Vario provides exceptional value for the price and punches above its weight. But I don't expect it to outlast my Compak K10PB.

Good luck with your search!

EDIT: you mentioned a used HG ONE. Here's one on kijiji in Oakville, just outside Toronto. The Ad was posted in June but hasn't been removed. Maybe it's still available:
http://m.kijiji.ca/other-home-appliance ... 8692367146