Hello all you fellow coffee geeks. I have a hard time choosing a prosumer espresso machine. I'm upgrading from a Silvia which I've had for eight years and now have a good chance to move it forward in the family. I'm on a limited budget so I've narrowed my options to these:

Expobar Brewtus IV 1150€
Rocket Evoluzione V2 used 1200€
Rocket Premium Plus V3 Pid 1250€
Expobar Office Lever 900€

As you can see, there are many different types of boilers and pumps to choose from and I'm not quite sure what features are the most important - looks (rocket), dual boiler (brewtus), rotary pump (evoluzione), PID (premium plus), saving a bunch of money (Office Lever)...

What would you choose? And why?

And because you're going to ask anyway: I have a Rancilio Rocky that I'm about to replace with a Baratza Sette when they are available in Europe.

The technical difference between the Brewtus (DB) and the other 3 (HX) is explained very well in this part:

Newbie Introduction to Espresso - Heat Exchanger vs. Double Boiler Espresso Machines [video]

if you cherish the better build quality/fit and finish of the Rockets and accept the hands-on approach to temperature control, I'd suggest the Evo2. The PID on the Premium Plus does not necessarily facilitate better temperature control; both machines are heat exchangers after all.
The Office Leva is simply put the option for those on a budget, but will do the trick just as well as the others.

I assume you want a machine that facilitates making cappuccinos and more of them relatively quickly? If not, I would consider a PID'ed single boiler like the Bezzera Unica and save money in the process as well.

Also, all machines you are considering are E61 machines but there are viable alternatives like the Bezzera BZ07/10/13 models.

Thank you for your reply. I've now spend two days reading HX vs DB threads and about HX flushes and temperature stability. If anything, it has made me even more confused... I haven't been that precise about temperatures but I also don't know if I should be. Apparently Rocket Evo v2 isn't the worst HX machine regarding temperature stability and flushing routines.

The use mostly is one americano and one cappuccino in the morning, couple of doppios in the evening and more coffee on the weekends, mostly with milk if we have people over.

What I'd like the machine to have is the lever to brew so Bezzera BZ models are out. There's no reason, I just want the lever. And I definetely don't want the ugly thermometer on the Rocket. If that's mandatory, then I'm getting the Expobar.

As for the "ugly thermometer": If you are referring to the SCACE thermofilter from the "Newbie introduction" video, it is by no means a mandatory accessory. OTOH the device known as "Eric's thermometer" (search on Google and YouTube) that is also mentioned in the video is widely recommended for any E61 HX machine and far better looking.

How picky you should be regarding temperature depends on how well-trained your taste buds are. If you can sense taste differences by slight temperature variations, there is an advantage to an HX in that you can tune it by playing only with flushing and rebound time. On a DB machine If you want to tune the temp it involves more waiting, because the boiler and the group head need to re-adjust to the temp you set on the dial. That said, with cappuccino's and americanos the dilution will to some extent mask these differences in taste as well.
I'd say don't be too intimidated by the HX flush routine to dial in temperatures, but If you want only the simplest way of operation, perhaps the Brewtus is the better choice for you.

uut wrote:Thank you for your reply. I've now spend two days reading HX vs DB threads and about HX flushes and temperature stability. If anything, it has made me even more confused... I haven't been that precise about temperatures but I also don't know if I should be. Apparently Rocket Evo v2 isn't the worst HX machine regarding temperature stability and flushing routines.

The use mostly is one americano and one cappuccino in the morning, couple of doppios in the evening and more coffee on the weekends, mostly with milk if we have people over.

What I'd like the machine to have is the lever to brew so Bezzera BZ models are out. There's no reason, I just want the lever. And I definetely don't want the ugly thermometer on the Rocket. If that's mandatory, then I'm getting the Expobar.

I currently own a Rocket Cellini PPv2 and I've previously owned a (heavily modified) Silvia and Expobar Office Lever. Here are my thoughts.

Firstly, as DeGaulle said, having Erics thermometer is a wise investment for pretty much any of these.

Expobar vs. Rocket in general: Build quality on the Rockets is typically a little nicer...Rockets use higher quality components and the fit and finish is a bit nicer, with one exception: my Expobar had a stainless bottom plate which made it rust-proof whereas the Rockets have a powder-coated steel frame. As long as you don't have any leaks or repair them quickly when you do, it's not an issue. If you're not planning on plumbing the machine in, the Expobars have much larger drip trays. The thermosiphon restrictor on my Rocket is copper and built-in to the tubing, whereas the restrictor on the Expobar was a teflon disk that actually at one point turned sideways in the fitting and ceased to function. So I guess you could fine-tune the hole size on the Expobar if you wanted, but it also can be dislodged. All things considered, I would go with Rocket, but that's just me. However, Expobar's build quality is entirely adequate.

HX vs. DB: IMHO DB shines with a PID and saturated group but the advantages are blunted slightly by the E61. Tons have been written about this. I love my E61 HX, and would not move up to a E61 DB.

Rocket Evo vs. PP PID: IMHO the PID is not needed on a HX machine. The pressurestat is plenty accurate and reliable, and the brew temp is not directly controlled by the PID OR the pressurestat, it's heated by the steam boiler which is heated by the heating element. Andrew Meo, one of the owners at Rocket, told me he thinks the pressurestat is fine and possibly more reliable, but they kept having customers asking for PIDs on HX machines, so they started putting them in. The rotary pump in the Evo is so so nice, and if you're going to plumb in, I'm not sure the PPv3PID is compatible.

In summary, as long as you are sure it has been well taken care of, I would go with the Rocket Evo. If not then the PPv3PID. Hope that helps.

Expobar brewtus IV is a nice and well build dual boiler pid machine.. i have no experience with the others.

Headala wrote:I currently own a Rocket Cellini PPv2 and I've previously owned a (heavily modified) Silvia and Expobar Office Lever. Here are my thoughts.

Firstly, as DeGaulle said, having Erics thermometer is a wise investment for pretty much any of these.

Expobar vs. Rocket in general: Build quality on the Rockets is typically much nicer...Rockets use higher quality components and the fit and finish is a bit nicer, with one exception: my Expobar had a stainless bottom plate which made it rust-proof whereas the Rockets have a powder-coated steel frame. As long as you don't have any leaks or repair them quickly when you do, it's not an issue. If you're not planning on plumbing the machine in, the Expobars have much larger drip trays. The thermosiphon restrictor on my Rocket is copper and built-in to the tubing, whereas the restrictor on the Expobar was a teflon disk that actually at one point turned sideways in the fitting and ceased to function. So I guess you could fine-tune the hole size on the Expobar if you wanted, but it also can be dislodged. All things considered, I would go with Rocket, but that's just me.

HX vs. DB: IMHO DB shines with a PID and saturated group but the advantages are blunted slightly by the E61. Tons have been written about this. I love my E61 HX, and would not move up to a E61 DB.

Rocket Evo vs. PP PID: IMHO the PID is not needed on a HX machine. The pressurestat is plenty accurate and reliable, and the brew temp is not directly controlled by the PID OR the pressurestat, it's heated by the steam boiler which is heated by the heating element. Andrew Meo, one of the owners at Rocket, told me he thinks the pressurestat is fine and possibly more reliable, but they kept having customers asking for PIDs on HX machines, so they started putting them in. The rotary pump in the Evo is so so nice, and if you're going to plumb in, I'm not sure the PPv3PID is compatible.

In summary, as long as you are sure it has been well taken care of, I would go with the Rocket Evo. If not then the PPv3PID. Hope that helps.

does the pid give you the advantage of setting the temp?

amagad wrote:does the pid give you the advantage of setting the temp?

I don't think the PID gives you the ability to set exact brew temp on an HX machine. Rather, it gives you the ability to set the temp of the steam boiler, right?

checkout decentespresso.com

I'd still get a grinder with bigger burrs, but no doubt you were expecting that answer from someone anyway!
(I haven't used a Sette - but I know that they are just too noisy for me.)

Not sure if the Rockets you list are Cellini's (straight sides) or Giotto's (slanted sides), but that would be a factor for me. (I'm not a big fan of shiny chrome boxes - even though I have one.) That and a rotary pump.