Hey all you experts out there.

I've got a 4 year old restaurant, 40 seats, do all baking in house, have our own coffee beans blended for us. We thought having espresso, latte, and cappuccino would be a good thing to have, so our distributor convinced us to rent-to-lease a Saeco Incanto. Our servers have to operate the espresso machines (we maybe sell 5-6 espresso or latte drinks a day). Our servers have to run the machines, we can't afford a manager or an owner to run it.

Needless to say, the Saeco was sooooo slow, so we bought another to be able to make 2 drinks at a time and not have customers waiting for 5 minutes. About 1.5 years later, they either leaked or intermittantly worked...now they are both inoperable.

Thinking superautomatics are a better solution, last month I bought a Jura Capresso S9 One Touch. About double the price of the Saeco. Our customers are not picky espresso drinkers, neither am I. I wanted simplicity and repeatability. Turns out the S9 has a temperature issue...it has difficulty delivering a hot drink. We ran temperature runs and were getting latte drinks around 130F to 145F. Customers complained. I sent the machine back, and the new one had the same problem. In summary, the steam used to siphon the milk isn't enough of a volume to warm up the milk. Ok, so I was about to exchange it for a DeLonghi Gran Dama, then I started thinking maybe I should avoid superautomatics all together.


Ok FORUM EXPERTS: here are my requirements:

5-6 espressos per day (most will be latte and capuccinos), maybe more but that will take a while to get customers thinking espresso here.
Servers (waiters/waitresses) have to be able to operate this thing. Think part time, students, distracted people
Plumbed-in is fine, our ice machine and coffee machines are plumbed in.
120v is preferred, but I can run 240 if required.
I want this thing to last 7-10 years
I can afford $2000 to $2500 including a grinder. Anything more expensive just won't pay for itself.
We are a restaurant, that wants to offer espresso/latte/capuccinos with desserts after dinner
Can't wait forever for the thing to make steam and froth milk

We could really use some clear advice. Someone told me Nuovo Siminelli or La Cimbali, but I don't even know which model and heck, they are all over $3000.

When I go out to dinner I rarely get espresso after dinner because if I get a shot or a machiatto I take a sip and leave the rest because it's terrible, or if I order a cappuccino I end up with about 12oz of hot milk with some cocoa powder on top.

I would like to have a little coffee with my dessert, but unless it's going to be good I'm not going to order espresso. On the other hand if I saw french press coffee on the menu I'd definitely order some, especially if there was a list of artisan coffees to choose from. In fact, if there was a list of good beans to choose from, or even just a feature roaster, I wouldn't care how you brewed the coffee. Anything that comes single serving, or brewed at the table would get my attention.

My advice would be to find a good local roaster, with quality, fresh beans, and then find a brew method that works for your environment. It might be espresso, but it will take a lot of training to get it right, and it's more expensive then other options. But there's no reason it couldn't be some kind of pour over or press (aeropress maybe?), and your local roaster can probably help you try out some different methods. If you want to serve good coffee, get the beans right first.

Both the machines you had were home super automatics, with tiny boilers and not particularly robust. You need a commercial super auto with a larger boiler and proper steaming, and that will run you more money. Alternatively, you can concentrate on serving excellent brewed coffee rather than bad espresso and lattes (the drinks you make with any sort of super auto, commercial or home, will be at best utterly mediocre).

sooo true, thanks. I am giving up on super automatics.

I am researching espresso machines from La Cimbali and Nuova Seminelli's...if I can find one around $3000, I might just get that, but they aren't easy to find in my price range.

I shamefully looked at a Paquini Livia 90 and the reviews are just so mixed...some people love it, others have real horror stories. The Livia and the grinder combo for $2600 was appealing, the horror stories aren't.

There is clearly a market gap between $2000 and $4000 machines that needs to be filled.

I have to agree with the idea that you would be much better off with offering french press or really well prepared drip. I have had several customers who wanted to do what you want and I placed a couple of nice Mazzers and a single group Rio in their little restaurants. I went in numerous times and trained and re-trained the staff. Eventually the machines came out because the floor staff didn't consider themselves part of the food/drink prep staff. The food/drink staff didn't consider themselves part of the floor staff. Neither would have worked since nobody was really interested nor a drinker of espresso. When you think about it, it does make sense. Unless you go into a pretty tight operation it is seldom you will find floor staff interested in much more than pouring coffee or maybe cutting a slice of pie or scooping some icecream. To expect a non-kitchen staff person to execute the care and skill required to produce a fine espresso is probably too much. Especially if they aren't doing it 20-30 times per shift.

Bernie

You could probably do pretty well with a La spaziale Vivaldi II and a used Super Jolly - for around 2700 or so.

http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom.../vivaldi_2

I mention it because you mentioned the Cimbali and Simonelli.

I think it probably has the certifications you need for the restaurant, would do a great job at that duty level, and would not be hard to learn to operate well.

However, you're not going to be able to have part time, dipsy, distracted people operate it successfully, but I think the same is true with the Cimbali and Simonelli.

Any way you can maybe train and designate one regular staff person per shift that would handle those duties?

ETA - but I think Bernie is making some really great points.

Bernie is right; the people advising you to get conventional machines have no clear idea what's involved.

It takes somebody very experienced, think a good barista at a cafe, a few hours to get up to snuff on a new machine. It takes about a week of full time training to get the basic espresso making skills. If your people don't have this basic training, your business will be serving cups of coffee swill and scalded milk.

So before buying a Cimbali, an NS, or some other conventional espresso machine, ask yourself how you will get the staff to operate them correctly?

IMHO I would go the route of fine brewed coffee as well.

Commercial espresso machines are designed to brew... when they sit idle for long periods of time calibrations are necessary in order to pull a palatable product. These calibrations need to be performed by staff that understand the dynamics of espresso preparation. This requires a great degree of passion and experience (not just somebody that was a "barista" for six months at Brand X coffee shop).

You can create a lasting impression with a freshly roasted, freshly ground, freshly brewed coffee... and it is much cheaper and easier to attain.

My thinking is along with the folks that recommend a good to great cup of brewed coffee. You could buy one of the many multiple pourover filter cone racks ( Like a Melita ) at a reasonable cost and use a doserless timed grinder to prepare the fresh grounds.
A PID kettle will do but a commercial PID counter top water heater is best if you make a lot of coffee.
Just my take, I do go to a local shop that has that equipment and enjoy their fresh roasts prepared that way.
-Richard