Hi there

So my dilemma is this, the Hario Skeleton (or Skerton) versus a Zassenhaus (not sure of the model, approx $109 Can though)? Which way should I go, bearing in mind the Hario is probably $40-50 cheaper. Does anyone know enough to weigh the two? Is the extra worth it? I'm currently making coffee via French Press but I am hoping to save for an espresso machine and then upgrade to an electric grinder (possibly, depends how much I end up using it! Currently I foresee a Vario given my budget).

I see plenty of threads debating the merits of electric grinder x versus electric grinder y but none on comparing hand grinders against electric. I have searched if admittedly briefly and also asked in a separate thread on hand grinders to no avail (it is a newish post though).

And I have asked the following else where as well, but if someone could point me at a thread comparing the quality of grind from a hand grinder against an electric I would be most interested.

Cheers

I have the second cousin to the Hario, the Kyocera ceramic burr grinder. I wanted something very portable for camping and my usual source was out of stock for the Zass Turkish Mill.

My thinking would be that the long term durability of a Zass is a known quantity, not so sure about the Hario. I don't have any experience with the Zass, though, just what I've read.

The Kyocera has worked out great for AeroPress for camping and traveling and worked well for my de-pressurized DeLonghi pump toy, but I'm finding it a little tougher to dial in and keep a setting with my more demanding La Peppina lever espresso and am saving for a future upgrade.

Hope this helps.

-Chris

BruceB wrote:And I have asked the following else where as well, but if someone could point me at a thread comparing the quality of grind from a hand grinder against an electric I would be most interested.

Cheers

Bruce,

Here's a link for you; PeDe against the Robur. Page 2, halfway down

Thanks for the info! Much obliged. I'm thinking maybe the Zass even though it is more expensive, no where in Vancouver actually seems to have the Hario in stock at the moment, and by the time I've paid shipping and possibly import taxes depending on where I can find one it pushes the price up towards the Zass... I stumbled across the Kyocera as an option the other day but have yet to see where I can source one from.

As for the link, a big thank you. There is so much great information here but finding it can be daunting!

We do ship to Canada, almost daily!

Hi Bruce,

I have a Hario Skerton, a Kyocera ceramic mill, and a Zass knee mill. The Hario is fine for anything but espresso or very coarse grinds. It's fast and easy to use, but it's nowhere near as good as the Kyocera or Zassenhaus for finer grinds. The Hario has nothing but the beans to keep the burrs in alignment, which is bad for fine grinds and even worse for coarse grinds because you get a lot of chunks.

One problem with post-2006 Zassenhaus grinders is that the quality control is not what is used to be, IMHO. Having tried dozens of these, my view is that each grinder has it's own quirks. If you get very lucky with one, the burrs will align perfectly and the grind is really excellent, more like the vintage Zass grinders. But most of them have slight alignment problems and they don't hold their settings very well. After every 30-40 turns you'll have to adjust the knob a bit. It's also very hard to clean.

The Kyocera is about as good as a decent Zassenhaus, but it's really very easy to use and clean. The base which holds the grinds fits nicely into most portafilters as well, making it dead simple to transfer your grind to your basket, if you are doing espresso.

You cannot adjust the grind on the Kyocera without opening it, and the plastic knob that allows you to adjust your grind eventually wears down a bit. Still, it seems to hold its setting better than a Zassenhaus.

The ceramic burrs on the Kyocera are not 100% perfectly aligned, either, as you will notice when cleaning and reassembling. The pieces have a bit of play and it's very difficult to get them to sit with perfect alignment. The result is that you will get a little inconsistency in your grind. But it's probably good enough for most espresso machines.

Given it's portability and ease of use, I'd choose the Kyocera over a Zassenhaus and both over a Hario Skerton.

Dom

Dom,

I borrowed a Kyocera grinder for a few months and have had a bit of a play with a Hario grinder and I have to say that my impressions are pretty much the opposite of yours. You said that ...

coffeedom wrote:The Hario has nothing but the beans to keep the burrs in alignment, which is bad for fine grinds and even worse for coarse grinds because you get a lot of chunks.

Is it possible that you have the Hario and Kyocera the wrong way around in your post?

The Kyocera grinder that I used had an outer burr that was held in place very loosely by three plastic notches (ie. it was not physically attached to anything) and could rattle around quite a bit, with an inner burr that was affixed only to the shaft. This meant that both the outer and the inner burr rattled around.

The Hario grinder that I played around with had an outer burr that was fixed to the body of the grinder, with an inner burr that was affixed only to the shaft. This meant that the outer burr was fixed, but the inner burr rattled around.

The Kyocera grinder that I used delivered more fines in french press than any grinder that I have ever used and the particles produced at french press grind were of all sorts of different sizes. I found that french press coffee made with the Kyocera became bitter very quickly. I also found that it made quite bitter espresso. In fact, it was using this grinder that prompted me to try sieving the fines out of the grind.

I haven't really used the Hario much. I remember that the french press grind looked pretty uneven, but not as bad as the Kyocera.

I tried to organise a blind cupping of 12 cups, being four from the Kyocera, four from a cheap electric conical grinder and four from a mini electronic. I even got out my refractometer and calibrated the grind for each so that all grinders delivered the same TDS in the same time from the same amount of coffee - seems to me to be the only sensible way to set up such a test. Unfortunately, I only had paper cups to do it in and they imparted such an awful taste that the differences in grinders was rendered moot. That said, I do think that the electric grinders delivered a better cup than the Kyocera.

Cheers,
Luca

Well none of this sounds very encouraging.

How does the Porlex compare with these guys?

I really don't want to take my beautiful old OE Lehnartz camping and to motorcycle rallies.

Cheers

Mike

Hi Luca,

What you've said is pretty much spot on, especially for French Press. I don't find many hand grinders can do coarse grinds well and the Kyocera is no exception.

It's true, the outer ceramic burr on the Kyocera can rattle a bit at looser settings. But once you tighten it up the upward force of the tightening knob forces it up into the three notches you mentioned and it hardly budges. The inner burr is (indirectly through a plastic clip) affixed to the metal shaft, and while it also can move a bit, it stays remarkably centered at the tighter settings.

The Hario's inner burr will rattle at all grind settings, as there is no knob providing an upward (and centering) force. When the burrs are filled with beans it gives decent results but not as decent as the Kyocera, from what I've seen. Whatever deficiencies the Kyocera has are worse with the Hario, IMO.

Doug at Orphan Espresso has a good video matching the Kyocera with a Faema wall mount:



As to the taste of the coffee, you are right - the amount of fines relative to a pro electric grinder could mean a bit more bitterness. I like the taste of the shots I've got with both my Kyocera and Zassenhaus, but I occasionally use a commercial Mahlkonig and that's clearly better and the shots are better rounded.

Overall the Kyocera is a good performer, I think. Perhaps I'll post some grind comparison photos later but I'll have to dig out my Hario first!

Dom

Again thanks for all the great info.

I know that with many high end items many things become subjective to taste and personal preference etc. I'm curious to know if anyone can give a ball park generalisation as to the return on investment on a grinder. Or rather let me express it this way, for me, with high audio equipment the biggest gains in quality cease to be made around the $1700cn dollar per component mark (roughly a 1000 pounds GB). After that it becomes an issue of nuances and tone, but like or dislike the quality is typically appreciable.

Now the debate between a hand grinder and an electric grinder. Can the same rule of thumb be applied? An 80/20 rule for investment on a grinder? Is there a way anyone can quantify the difference between the likes of a hand grinder and say a Vario grinder. I apologise for the vagueness of my question, being very new to the coffee scene I am still trying to build a knowledge base from which I can clearly articulate my questions
!