I recently returned from Italy where, as you know, they have espresso bars on every corner. It was the same in Spain. Why is it that no coffee shop can come close to the espresso that I consistently had in every coffee bar I was in. My main question though, is it possible to duplicate the kind of espresso I consumed in Italy with a home machine? If it is what machine could do it in the $1500 range. I have been reading the questions and answers on this board for a while and if it is possible to duplicate what they have in Italy, the why can't Starbucks or whoever get close?
Thanks
Ps I did buy a $300 machine after my trip to Spain 5 years ago, but could not improve on Starbucks taste

drjch wrote:is it possible to duplicate the kind of espresso I consumed in Italy

Yes with a professional grinder and machine

drjch wrote:why can't Starbucks or whoever get close?

Because of the coffee they use

Topic is cross-posted at CoffeeGeek, look there for my response:
http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/429328

In the case of Italian coffee, you have it easier. There are US blends that try to duplicate it. Or you can also buy italian branded coffee (Illy or Lavazza) but the freshness will not be that great. Spanish coffee is harder to find because you need a special roaster and there is none in the US. The only brand name I know that sells in the US is called 'tupinamba' 100% torrefato (coffee imported from Spain), which then you have to mix in a proportion of 20% with dark roasted coffee. You can buy the best fresh coffee in US.

Cheers

Why is it that all of the coffee shops over here can't come close to what you can get in Italy?
Not just the espresso but the smoothness/thickness of the steamed milk. If I get an espresso machine, with a good grinder, it is possible to duplicate the stuff I got in Italy?

Why is it that the only place you can get decent hamburger in Italy as good as MacDonald's is at a MacDonald's?

Well that's not quite the same, but you might want to try some different coffee shops to find what you like. There are shops in the US that make better espresso than you can get in Italy. If you are going to shops that specialize in serving the American masses you are looking in the wrong places.

drjch wrote:Why is it that all of the coffee shops over here can't come close to what you can get in Italy?
Not just the espresso but the smoothness/thickness of the steamed milk. If I get an espresso machine, with a good grinder, it is possible to duplicate the stuff I got in Italy?

Is there an echo in here?
Isn't this a repeat of the same question being answered now on two separate websites?
Seems like I'm repeating myself too, but hopefully this post will add some clarity.


1. Not ALL of the coffee shops in America serve drek.

Perhaps the majority of shops and the bigger chains are poor, but there are some great coffee shops here in the US. Quite frankly speaking, the coffee shops I tried in Italy, Norway, and France are generally better than the majority of shops in the USA but still several steps down from the best shops (and what I usually make my kitchen - even though I'm just an amateur).


2. If you get a decent machine and grinder along with great beans you can certainly duplicate what you got in Italy. In fact, with a little practice you should readily be able to surpass the average shop's product.


3. The reason WHY most shops don't come close to the quality you see in other places is the culture just isn't prevalent in the USA (yet ). These shops lack knowledge and training, but since many can make money by following the Starbux model there is little incentive to change.


There are some great shops and great roasters in the USA, and their success helps to grow the culture and the demand for better quality coffee and espresso/espresso-based drinks. This is the 3rd wave we talk about.

Dr. J

Since you are in ATL you need to take a trip to Octane, great espresso is definitely possible!

I'm sorry for the cross posting-I'm new at this and was not aware.. If you had $2000 to spend for the grinder and machine what would you recommend? The steam for the milk is also important to me. Thanks for all your help and again i apologize for being the noob that i am.

Any machine you see a review of here on HB is more than capable. Add in a top quality grinder like the Mazzer Super Jolly, Cimbali Jr or Max, MACAP... Then give yourself a year or two of practice, which is the key. Even the most modest set-up will produce a good espresso but 80% of the problems lie on the portafilter side of the machine (Barista). Most pro's pull more shots in a month than we do in a year. It just takes practice. If playing a guitar was easy, everyone would do it; if pulling super shots were easy, you would not have places like HB or coffeegeek.

And it is always interesting to see how peoples tastes develop. What I once would have been proud of as a super shot became sinkfodder a year later. There comes a point where you focus less on trying to get those one-off super duper shots and concentrate on consistency as the bar raises.

The last 4 posts from Dan and Dave all contain some great stuff. As I mentioned earlier, with a modicum of humor, set your sights a bit higher. With $2000 to spend you should have little trouble setting yourself up with a quality home coffee bar. Figuring a rough division of around $800 for a grinder and the remainder for an espresso machine will give you a good starting point. With a bit of careful searching you may be able to find a good used grinder which really opens the door on a machine. There are a number of (relatively) affordable dual-boiler machines now on the market which deserve consideration...

Thanks for your help. If I can find a grinder for around $500 or so, what would your recommendation be on a machine that doesn't have a steep learning curve?

If you can find a good grinder my vote would be for any of the quickmill machines. I have had two myself and love them. They are temp stable and with the addition of erics thermocouple adapter you are able to surf temps pretty easily. As far as the grinder goes any of the ones mentioned here can be found on e-bay for a decent price used. I also have been to italy and agree that the drinks there are far superior to 99% of what you find here in america. With some careful research and being patient you can re-create what you had over in europe. Take your time in deciding on a machine and grinder, find a good roaster ( there is no shortage of excellent roasters listed on this site) and with time it will all come together.

Bluegrod,
thanks for your advice. How does the quickmill do with the steam or frothing

drjch wrote:Bluegrod,
thanks for your advice. How does the quickmill do with the steam or frothing

Steaming and frothing with a quickmill has been excellent. I did have a bit of a learning curve with it but now I have the hang of the machine. It does steam very quickly when I compare it to other home/light commercial machines that I have used in the past. I did order the 4 hole steam tip from chris coffee and it was a marked improvement in timing as the smaller holes allow for a slower more consistent steam. Contrary to what chris's web site says you can still have the function of the no burn steam arm intact with a simple mod to the inner teflon tube.

I agree with the above list on Grinders, Tho I might add the Mazzer Major to the list. Slightly taller then the superjolly, and burrs are 83mm instead of the 64mm(right?) on the superjolly. Used, they roughly go for about the same price, 450-500.

For the Machines, I would consider a double boiler. Not saying DONT get a Heat Exchanger, I have one, and I like it. But a double boiler takes out some of the learning curve in regards to temperature management of the HX machines. That said, using an Hx IS NOT HARD, and once you get the hang of it, superb shots are easily attainable.

So, to add to the machine list:
La Spaziale Vivaldi/Vivaldi Mini
Izzo Alex Duetto
Vibiemme Double Domo
Expobar Brewtus III R/V

In the simplest way of explaining it, and Double Boiler heats up to the temp your desire, Flush ~2oz of water, and its at the temp you want. A HX machine requires slightly more attention to temperature, as the boiler is set above the boiling point, with a tube running through it. The water used for brewing comes from the reservoir, and flows through that tube in the boiler, heating it up to brewing temp. To read about it more accurately, see How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs. Again, both machines can pull great shots, its the usage that changes. I like my HX, ill be upgrading to a DB in the newyear.