I have been listening to all of your advice and i really appreciate it all. I guess my main reason for wanting a double boiler is from what i am gathering the hx machines take alot longer time to produce the foam for lattes and caps. Is there a single boiler that is available that can steam close to what the double boilers can do? I also hear what you are saying about the grinder, and I am going to heed your advice, but it seems odd to me that the grinder has that much of a influence on good espresso. Thanks

drjch wrote:I guess my main reason for wanting a double boiler is from what i am gathering the hx machines take alot longer time to produce the foam for lattes and caps.

I don't think you'll find that many agree with this statement -- and it certainly does not appear in the detailed replies people have offered to your question. The large steam boilers in any of the prosumer HX machines that have been discussed in this thread are more than capable of steaming for lattes/caps; if you read carefully, you'll see that the main advantage to a DB unit is the simplification of temperature management on the espresso (brewing) end of things, and not so much for its steaming capabilities.

drjch wrote:I guess my main reason for wanting a double boiler is from what i am gathering the hx machines take a lot longer time to produce the foam for lattes and caps.

Uh, no.

What takes a long time to steam is a Single Boiler/Dual Use (SB/DU) machine, because the boiler must switch back-and-forth from "brew temperature" to "steam temperature." A Heat Exchanger (HX) machine is always at steam temperature, so you have lots of steam power (how much depends upon the size of the boiler, the setting of the pressurestat, and how may shots you've just pulled. A Double Boiler (DB) machine has two separate boilers (d'oh!), one set for brewing and the other for steaming.

There is no difference between HX and DB machines of equal quality in terms of what you get in the cup.

drjch wrote:I also hear what you are saying about the grinder, and I am going to heed your advice, but it seems odd to me that the grinder has that much of a influence on good espresso.

OK, think of the machine itself as a car. It will get you from here to there. In fact, any car -- as long as it's in working order -- is capable of getting you from here to there. (Bear with me, I'm making this up off the top of my head.) Think of the grinder as the engine -- without it, you're going nowhere (pre-ground, stale coffee); with it, you might be going 0-60 in 25 seconds, or in 6.2 seconds (depending upon the quality of the grinder). It all depends. (Think of the coffee as -- what? -- the tires, affecting the comfort, the cornering, etc. of the ride.)

In Italian, the "Four M's of Espresso" translate to the espresso machine, the grinder/grind, the beans themselves, and the hand of the operator. Personal opinion: all are important, but I find these to be listed in an ever-increasing order of importance.

Cheers,
Jason

drjch wrote:I also hear what you are saying about the grinder, and I am going to heed your advice, but it seems odd to me that the grinder has that much of a influence on good espresso.

Since we're delving into analogies, I'll try one to explain why the grinder is so important.

The grinder produces the medium through which the water flows; if the coffee granules are random mixtures of sand, pebbles, and boulders, the extraction will be different each time. The top end grinders produce a consistent ratio of sand and pebbles and no boulders, increasing the likelihood that the extraction characteristics will be the same each time.

drjch,
Part of the problem is that you've never had a good machine or fooled around with one. Many of your questions would be obvious to you otherwise, for example the comparison of HX and DB steaming capabilities. In your price range, you could produce great espresso from most machines available. DO NOT IGNORE THE GRINDER. This is like when your parents told you never to put anything into electrical sockets. You can take it on faith and buy a good grinder and save yourself a lot of heartache, or you can buy a cheaper grinder, learn things the hard way over the coming year or two, and then buy an expensive grinder. Presumably the reason you came to this forum was for good advice. Feel free to use it. Many people here enjoy the journey as well as the eventual destination and they have been through several grinders and machines. I've done this, learning as I go, and it's much more expensive this way. If you have the budget to start off better, I would.

I was going to make a statement concerning both of your concerns but I think the last few post have hit those nails right on their heads.

mgwolf wrote:I've done this, learning as I go, and it's much more expensive this way. If you have the budget to start off better, I would.

And if you consider the used market you can buy into the Mazzer Major which has 83mm planar burrs for under $500.00 and figure in maybe $100.00 for cosmetics/hopper changeout and an extra $50.00 for a set of new factory burrs, just to be sure. This is a tank that will last your lifetime.

So for a $650.00 investment you can have a grinder that most people here would agree can keep up with and maybe take on most of the 'Titan' grinders. And if you want to open a coffee shop you'll have a head start

-Cecil

CRCasey wrote:And if you consider the used market you can buy into the Mazzer Major...

Er, a quick reality check.

Given the original question ("Great espresso/latte- Is it possible with a home machine?"), we should remember that while something like a Mazzer Major will undoubtedly do the job and then some, less expensive and capable alternatives do exist (e.g., Le'Lit PL53, Vario Baratza, Mazzer Mini). The same goes for the espresso machine. One of the site's recommended "newbie friendly" espresso kits centers around the diminutive Ponte Vecchio Lusso. It would not be difficult to match the OP's "Italy Experience" with it and any of the aforementioned grinders.

You can always spend more and get more. But you can also spend less and get the majority of what spending much more will get. This point is made ad nauseum in threads like Downgraditus.

Good point, Dan. A Mazzer Major would be overkill for most newbies, probably even for 90 % of the people who look at HB. Michael

timo888 wrote:Since Zin puts the "new" Oscar in his list of machines to consider, I'd like to take this opportunity to invite anyone who has detailed knowledge of the design and functioning of its "patented mechanical preinfusion", to clarify. No speculation please (all I've found by searching are guesses).

I realize this may be radical suggestion, but Timo, if, in fact you ARE that curious, had you thought about actually contacting the manufacturer and ASKING what they mean by "patented mechanical preinfusion?"
(The patented part is easy...LOL) They might not give it all away, but they will certainly answer your questions, especially if they believe you to be interested in one of their machines, whether fact or not.
Just my 2 cents here.