Since Zin puts the "new" Oscar in his list of machines to consider, I'd like to take this opportunity to invite anyone who has detailed knowledge of the design and functioning of its "patented mechanical preinfusion", to clarify. No speculation please (all I've found by searching are guesses).

Jason, thank you so much for your excellent post-That will help narrow my search greatly. Thank you Jman and Bluegrod as well. One more thing if you please, I really think I would do better, or I should say I think It would be easier for me with a double broiler. If I find a used one out there, is it a shot in the dark that it will be usable or are they fairly reliable, meaning would I be crazy buying used equipment when I am fairly new to this. As a side, I am very good repairing any type of equipment. Thanks for all of your help.
Jim

Well my statement for that is it will be the same whatever machine you are going to buy if you buy used. My advice for a used machine would be to check coffeegeek.com for a used machine. I would also check e-bay or possibly craigslist in your area or an area close by you. My feeling is that the people on these sites that are selling machines are upfront about the condition of their machines. From what I have seen once most people reach this level they take pretty good care of their equipment. If you go on e-bay you need to look at pictures and ask questions but ultimately you have to accept the fact that some people on e-bay do not care and are only selling for profit. With that said it is a fantastic place to find deals if you know what you are looking for and if you pay with pay-pal and the item is not as described you are covered for the purchase price anyway. craigslist is nice since you can go see the machine and get your hands on it. Check chris coffee since they get buyer remorse items and you may hit it right and they will have something you like and you can get it for a little less than new. Whatever way you go take your time and the right machine will find you.

A couple additional comments . . .

I have no idea how "patented mechanical preinfusion" works on the Oscar. The machine was placed on my list because many people use it and like it, and not least, because the less one spends on the machine, the more one has to spend on a grinder.

While there is no difference in the cup between the espresso that comes out of an HX machine and a DB model, and while an HX machine is easy to use*, I can see where the allure of having a DB machine would appeal to a "newbie." Generally they are more expensive than an HX model, as well as being relatively "newer" to the market -- if one is available used, I would wonder why.

A very common mistake for people just starting out is to focus primarily on the machine, giving short shrift to the grinder. Focus on the grinder! A great machine with a weak grinder will give you disappointing results in the cup. A great grinder with an average machine will be better than a great machine and an average grinder . . .

Cheers,
Jason

* I've long said that it's more complicated to explain "temperature surfing" than to actually do it!

I agree with zin 110%. Some of the grinders listed previously can be had for 300-450 on e-bay thus allowing you about 1600-1700 to spend on a machine and that amount of money will get you a fantastic home machine used or new depending on what you find. The mazzers and the macaps seem to be more readily available on e-bay versus the other brands and I have seen some really good prices recently on the smaller mazzers such as the mini (with the exception of the electronic version). The larger ones are there but tend to go for a little more but you should still be able to find a decent used one for around 500. I can say I have made no greater improvement to my shots than when I upgraded to a mazzer grinder.

I wasn't holding your feet to the fire, Jason, in case you got that impression. I understand "mechanical" preinfusion to mean "not electrical/not programmable" but beyond that, I have no clue what NS means by it, or what was patentable in the design. I was hoping that someone in-the-know might chime in.

No, no -- I wanted the OP to know that I have no idea what it means (it was, however on my "recommended" list, so one might safely presume that I did know), as well as wanting to make clear why it was on my list (more money for the grinder).

Lots of great info in this thread.

Too true.. The grinder is THE most important thing to concentrate on. If getting a double boiler means getting a "lesser" grinder.. Then Dont get a double boiler. Its that simple. I said earlier I want to upgrade from my HX... Does that mean I dont like the shots I get? No.. Quite the contrary.. I love the shots I make. I want the temp control a PID double boiler offers, thats all.

I highly suggest you go to Ebay and just type in MAZZER. There should be some Super Jollys and Majors for sale, for at most 500ish. I got a Major for less. Its not unheard of for people to find Majors and SJs for 200 or 250.. Those people are most likely more patient, and possibly just lucky. Mazzer grinders are often Re-Badged under the names "Astoria" and "Rio". Dont worry.. They're identical. Mine is actually an Astoria.

The La Spaz Vivaldi Mini, I think, is a good deal on a great machine. It is a reservoir machine, meaning it doesnt need to be/Cant be plumbed in. Digital temp control, option for pre-infusion(if u so desire) and overall, a very nice machine. But for me, the Duetto wins currently. The reason it wins is its flexibility to go from plumbed in to reservoir feed, with the flip of a lever. Other brands, like VBM, ExpoBar, or La Spaz have two models, one plumbed w/ a rotary pump. and another reservoir feed, with a vibe pump.

In HX land, right now, most likely the best deal on a new machine is the Fiorenzato Bricoletta. At $999, its a heck of a machine. At its former price, I think Anita beats it. The bric needs 20amp, and it doesnt have a brew pressure gauge. The gauges arent SUPER accurate, but its nice to not have to make a PF gauge to adjust brew pressure. That said, you likely have a 20amp outlet in your kitchen, and for $999, I dont think there is a better deal out there right now.. On a new machine.

Find a grinder first. Once you have payed for the grinder, see what you have left and evaluate your options.

Heres an Example..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0217687693

JmanEspresso wrote:In HX land, right now, most likely the best deal on a new machine is the Fiorenzato Bricoletta . . .

Before anyone goes rushing off to "Bricoletta Land," they may want to read "Another Bricoletta Busted", as well as mike mcKoffe's comments on his own Bric here (steaming), here (problems with 3-way solenoid), and so on . . .

I'm not saying it's a bad machine, only that there appear to have been some problems.

Bricoletta land was funny.. I Lol'd.

Interesting stuff about the bric. About a month after I bought Anita, I wondered If i had bought a machine with plumbing capability, namely the Andreja, or the Bric DC. Guess Im glad I didnt.

While most every machine in this price range will need maintenance, its annoying, and who really WANTS to do it. If it was still at its former price, Id take back what I said. Since it is 1000 bucks, idk.. Thats a tough call to make, and Im glad Im not the one making the decision

I have been listening to all of your advice and i really appreciate it all. I guess my main reason for wanting a double boiler is from what i am gathering the hx machines take alot longer time to produce the foam for lattes and caps. Is there a single broiler that is available that can steam close to what the double boilers can do? I also hear what you are saying about the grinder, and I am going to heed your advice, but it seems odd to me that the grinder has that much of a influence on good espresso. Thanks

drjch wrote:I guess my main reason for wanting a double boiler is from what i am gathering the hx machines take alot longer time to produce the foam for lattes and caps.

I don't think you'll find that many agree with this statement -- and it certainly does not appear in the detailed replies people have offered to your question. The large steam boilers in any of the prosumer HX machines that have been discussed in this thread are more than capable of steaming for lattes/caps; if you read carefully, you'll see that the main advantage to a DB unit is the simplification of temperature management on the espresso (brewing) end of things, and not so much for its steaming capabilities.

drjch wrote:I guess my main reason for wanting a double boiler is from what i am gathering the hx machines take a lot longer time to produce the foam for lattes and caps.

Uh, no.

What takes a long time to steam is a Single Boiler/Dual Use (SB/DU) machine, because the boiler must switch back-and-forth from "brew temperature" to "steam temperature." A Heat Exchanger (HX) machine is always at steam temperature, so you have lots of steam power (how much depends upon the size of the boiler, the setting of the pressurestat, and how may shots you've just pulled. A Double Boiler (DB) machine has two separate boilers (d'oh!), one set for brewing and the other for steaming.

There is no difference between HX and DB machines of equal quality in terms of what you get in the cup.

drjch wrote:I also hear what you are saying about the grinder, and I am going to heed your advice, but it seems odd to me that the grinder has that much of a influence on good espresso.

OK, think of the machine itself as a car. It will get you from here to there. In fact, any car -- as long as it's in working order -- is capable of getting you from here to there. (Bear with me, I'm making this up off the top of my head.) Think of the grinder as the engine -- without it, you're going nowhere (pre-ground, stale coffee); with it, you might be going 0-60 in 25 seconds, or in 6.2 seconds (depending upon the quality of the grinder). It all depends. (Think of the coffee as -- what? -- the tires, affecting the comfort, the cornering, etc. of the ride.)

In Italian, the "Four M's of Espresso" translate to the espresso machine, the grinder/grind, the beans themselves, and the hand of the operator. Personal opinion: all are important, but I find these to be listed in an ever-increasing order of importance.

Cheers,
Jason

drjch wrote:I also hear what you are saying about the grinder, and I am going to heed your advice, but it seems odd to me that the grinder has that much of a influence on good espresso.

Since we're delving into analogies, I'll try one to explain why the grinder is so important.

The grinder produces the medium through which the water flows; if the coffee granules are random mixtures of sand, pebbles, and boulders, the extraction will be different each time. The top end grinders produce a consistent ratio of sand and pebbles and no boulders, increasing the likelihood that the extraction characteristics will be the same each time.

drjch,
Part of the problem is that you've never had a good machine or fooled around with one. Many of your questions would be obvious to you otherwise, for example the comparison of HX and DB steaming capabilities. In your price range, you could produce great espresso from most machines available. DO NOT IGNORE THE GRINDER. This is like when your parents told you never to put anything into electrical sockets. You can take it on faith and buy a good grinder and save yourself a lot of heartache, or you can buy a cheaper grinder, learn things the hard way over the coming year or two, and then buy an expensive grinder. Presumably the reason you came to this forum was for good advice. Feel free to use it. Many people here enjoy the journey as well as the eventual destination and they have been through several grinders and machines. I've done this, learning as I go, and it's much more expensive this way. If you have the budget to start off better, I would.

I was going to make a statement concerning both of your concerns but I think the last few post have hit those nails right on their heads.

mgwolf wrote:I've done this, learning as I go, and it's much more expensive this way. If you have the budget to start off better, I would.

And if you consider the used market you can buy into the Mazzer Major which has 83mm planar burrs for under $500.00 and figure in maybe $100.00 for cosmetics/hopper changeout and an extra $50.00 for a set of new factory burrs, just to be sure. This is a tank that will last your lifetime.

So for a $650.00 investment you can have a grinder that most people here would agree can keep up with and maybe take on most of the 'Titan' grinders. And if you want to open a coffee shop you'll have a head start

-Cecil

CRCasey wrote:And if you consider the used market you can buy into the Mazzer Major...

Er, a quick reality check.

Given the original question ("Great espresso/latte- Is it possible with a home machine?"), we should remember that while something like a Mazzer Major will undoubtedly do the job and then some, less expensive and capable alternatives do exist (e.g., Le'Lit PL53, Vario Baratza, Mazzer Mini). The same goes for the espresso machine. One of the site's recommended "newbie friendly" espresso kits centers around the diminutive Ponte Vecchio Lusso. It would not be difficult to match the OP's "Italy Experience" with it and any of the aforementioned grinders.

You can always spend more and get more. But you can also spend less and get the majority of what spending much more will get. This point is made ad nauseum in threads like Downgraditus.

Good point, Dan. A Mazzer Major would be overkill for most newbies, probably even for 90 % of the people who look at HB. Michael

timo888 wrote:Since Zin puts the "new" Oscar in his list of machines to consider, I'd like to take this opportunity to invite anyone who has detailed knowledge of the design and functioning of its "patented mechanical preinfusion", to clarify. No speculation please (all I've found by searching are guesses).

I realize this may be radical suggestion, but Timo, if, in fact you ARE that curious, had you thought about actually contacting the manufacturer and ASKING what they mean by "patented mechanical preinfusion?"
(The patented part is easy...LOL) They might not give it all away, but they will certainly answer your questions, especially if they believe you to be interested in one of their machines, whether fact or not.
Just my 2 cents here.