Reading all the good inputs here I now want several new machines, not just one...
I wish I had access to the type of second-hand market you have in other (bigger) countries, where finding and buying good machines at reasonable prices seems relatively easy.

Would not mind buying used, as my budget has limits, but for that to happen I would need to be very active searching and have some luck on ebay. Realistically I have to buy new.

Speaking of budget, I wrote the wrong price on the Londinium 1 in my original post. It is of course 1625 GBP, not euros, so it is about 1970 euros, which means almost 3500 USD in total with shipping and VAT here, so it is actually over my stated limit (I have corrected the text now)

2StrokeBloke wrote:Don't limit your quest to the Strega and L1. Here are some other ideas but not sure what they would be worth in your currency.

Quick Mill Achille is available in two versions (PID and non-PID), and there are four (I think) different options from Groupo Izzo: (Pompei, Nuevo Pompei, PID'd Pompei and the Izzo Alex Leva) as well as the new offering coming from La Marzocco in the near future.

True, I should keep an open mind. I looked at both Quick Mill Achille and the Izzo Alex Leva but they are both as expensive as the Londinium, (both will be ca. 3500 USD or more in total), and the L1 seems to have a bigger following than both, so I didn't consider them. But might be I haven't looked at the best places(?).
There are just a very few brands that actually has a dealer here in Norway so I am looking mostly at http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com and http://www.stoll-espresso.de.
Any tip on other online stores that ship internationally is very welcome.

If I could find a well kept cremina for around 1000 USD or less I would buy it instantly. Other than that, the Strega seems more and more an attractive option to me with its build quality and features at a little over 2000 USD in total.

RedMan wrote: If I could find a well kept cremina for around 1000 USD or less I would buy it instantly.

So would I. Good luck with that strategy. Let me know how that works out. For $1000 expect a rebuild or additional investment required. The three on Ebay right now are not that great if you are looking for "well kept". They'll sell, but there is one born every minute.

Many of the good ones are trading hands from folks "in the circle" and not even being marketed. Many on Ebay are from folks who have no idea what they have, or ones that have been "bastardized". And from those that supposedly don't know "what they have" expect issues. Rarely do you see the "well kept" one come up you are referring to, and when you do it goes for the expected premium. Plus, search Coffee Geek or Home Barista - when was the last time one came up in "known" great shape.

There are many Creminas out there, but some are headaches and will require investment, wherewithal, and some work to make them what you want.

Don't get me wrong, I own two Creminas and *love* them. I was patient, diligent, asked a lot of questions and ended up with "good" ones. But it took months.

I will go on a limb and say if you are able to master them, they can produce as good of a shot as anything on your wishlist. Although they won't have high throughput as they are pretty much as single user machine. The HG One and a Creimina make for an interesting, quiet combo.

Thanks for good info and tips Tim. Will be on the lookout but keep my expectations in check.
I see new Creminas go for 3500 usd (seems insanely overpriced) so I realize 1000 usd for a well kept used one is too optimistic, and that any find around that price is likely to need some new parts or even an overhaul.
I'm prepared to spend extra on that and do some dirty work if I should be so lucky to find one.

A la pavoni europiccola or pro in ok/good condition should be much easier to find used, there are quite a few on ebay as we speak. I don't see any Elektra lever for sale.

I will say:

- although my Cremina's were both in great shape for 25 and 31 years old, they both of course needed rebuilding, and I did them from the ground up. They were both lightly / barely ever used - but it's like the used / vintage car that just sits unused - the works, seals, valves, etc gum up, the gas goes bad.... etc.
- rebuilding them was fun, if you like to tinker and get satisfaction out of a job well done, you will enjoy it. Dougs / OE's videos on rebuilding Cremina's are a great aid. If you were not already aware of them, go to Orphan Espresso's website.

But why not just get a Strega, and forego all the waiting, taking a chance there is a major issue with a Cremina, etc? A lot to be said for new! I had footprint / size limitations, and did not want a big machine... but if I did, your other choices are nice ones! There are a lot of very savvy coffee geeks here that have Stregas and LOVE them.

Used Cremina's - again, not to beat a dead horse, but unless you buy from someone that "knows what they have" you are taking a risk... and there are certain things / parts that are "unobtanium" that might result in you regretting the choice. Both of my Cremina's were from folks that "did not know what they had" and I got LUCKY. Just more to consider. Maybe Scott (poster weebitnutty) will read this - he has two also, and mentioned to me before he was thinking of selling his second one. He got it on Ebay for a premium... so it won't be $1000... I may also be selling one of mine, but not in the near future. Both have so much TLC, upgrades like Teflon gaskets, vac breaker caps, etc...

SpaceTime wrote: - rebuilding them was fun, if you like to tinker and get satisfaction out of a job well done, you will enjoy it.

Very true, I'm the type who also gets a kick out of rebuilding and tinkering with things. (Heck, I just bought a mini floating valve to maybe plumb in my silvia one day, just for the fun of it ). That is also one of the reasons I've gotten fascinated with the cremina, seeing what others have been able to do with these classics and the effort they've been willing to put into it. Must mean it's a special machine.
Saw the OE how-to guides also, and they seem like a great resource both for info and parts.

SpaceTime wrote:But why not just get a Strega, and forego all the waiting, taking a chance there is a major issue with a Cremina, etc?

You read my mind, I've already started checking with different online stores and preparing my better half for another 'coffee thing' and getting used to even less counter space...

I haven't found one site that lists all the various spring lever models currently available with their specs..that would be something I'd expect in this forum! (Mods..how do we get this going?)

The Strega seems like a bargain against everything else. I really don't know what an extra $1000+ gets you above the Strega..looking at the QM Achille, the L1, Pompei's, etc.

The ONLY thing you might consider with the spring levers over the manual lever like the Cremina and Pavoni's is the amount of force and CONTROL it takes to pull the handle down and control its release. Some on the forums have commented that their spouses find it difficult to pull the handle down..I'm not saying every spouse has trouble, but if your spouse is going to be responsible for their shot, then I'd run the idea of the spring past them..

A manual lever is also going to take some force to push the water thru the grounds..but you don't have the danger of the spring tension to contend with. This isn't a deal killer for sure, just a FYI. I've seen pictures of little old Italian women using commercial spring levers so obviously with a bit of training and a mind on controlling the handle, it's doable.

Let us know what you decide!

Dear RedMan,
I am not a mod, just a rank and file, like you. There is not a compendium, likely because you have probably researched all of the contemporary levers, judging by your post, and you are familiar with the major ones. Historically, levers were the first machines ever made and so discontinued models and out-of-business companies would comprise a long list of used machines. Multiply that by the slight model changes each lineage has seen over its commercial lifetime and the numbers would be very large. Useful list, yes, but a labor of love, to be sure.

I have a La Pavoni manual and an L1 spring and I have to pull harder on the little manual than I ever have to do on the spring. In that respect, levers are levers because they give one appropriate mechanical advantage. People are always blogging about their concern about being unable to pull a spring lever but I have never read anything about anyone having to return a spring lever because they just couldn't use it. It is easy to pull down empty or with a puck in place. Where springs get their bad publicity is that if you lift them up out of their cocked detente when empty and do not hold on to them, the spring will snap them upward with a dangerous or destructive velocity. One can let go of them all of the time when hydrualic pressure against a coffee puck is limiting the rate of spring expansion. In fact, that is one of the advantages, that the barista can let go and steam milk while the shot completes itself with hands off.

There is a post on the Londinium web site about the extra infusion force of a Strega, which uses two springs to the L1's one, and some give-and-take about which one is better (like any debate on any machine, there is no pat answer). One of the discussants mentions that pulling the two sping Strega lever requires more force and that the L1 would have to be made heavier so as to not tip forward during a pull if it had two springs; in response to that, someone replied that the Strega and the L1 were the same weight. so I think there is a lot of overthink. In my book, you buy the best you can afford that will fit in the space you have available, and make sure your grinder is better quality than your machine. Once you have this scenario in place, then what you buy is what you want to see yourself doing on a daily basis: pushing a button, hearing a vibratory pump, hearing a rotatory pump, pressing a manual lever, pulling and releasing a spring lever. People have sold their high-level pump machines to buy high-level lever machines, and vice-versa.
I like to tell people to start simple and trade up, but there is no reason why you cannot buy the best and learn on it, as long as you realize that any machine, no matter what price, is not going to make coffee for you. You have to learn the machine and learn the technique. Taking a barista class is not an unreasonable expense to factor into the cost of a machine and grinder! Some classes (in the US) teach you on your machine. In that case, it is better to have a La Pavoni than a 35 kg lever to transport to class.
BT

Nicely written.

victoriacoffees wrote:Nicely written.

+1 And thanks for info on spring vs. manual levers both Russ and Buckley!

I'm impressed with all the contributions to this thread and it has been a great help for me in many ways, both in learning about different levers and what they can and cannot do, for finding out what I will look for in a new machine and also maybe correct some false views or expectations I had. Have read through the thread 3-4 times already.

2StrokeBloke wrote:Let us know what you decide!

You bet. Will be sure to do that.

Ps. about used creminas as discussed earlier. The 85 model (110V us-model) that has been out on ebay the last week was sold today. It had a couple of scratches and dings and probably needs some work done, pictures were poor and very little information from the seller, but it was still sold for 1650 USD.

As you're looking for a Cremina in Europe you might want to check out the Swiss auction site Ricardo.

The machines that come up for auction in Switzerland are usually pretty clean. Most of the time all they need is set of new seals and you're good to go. From time to time they come up for less than 1000 Sfr. You just need a bit of luck and patience.

Good luck with your machine hunt!