Hello! I'm new to this forum, but have been reading every thread that I can find on entry level espresso machines for the last few weeks. I have never had espresso at home, and am an absolute newbie to home machines, but worked in an independent cafe for many years in college getting semi-proficient at coffee drinks. I will mostly be making lattes, but would like to get better at the art of espresso, too. From what I have learned, I think I'm a good candidate for either the Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia. I'm leaning towards the Gaggia, but need a little help deciding. Here's what I think I know...

The Gaggia has the advantage of PRICE, especially with the current sale at wholelattelove. It seems a bit simpler (less finicky?) and yet has great reviews. My concern: doesn't it have the power and reservoir needed to push out multiple lattes sort of quickly on a work morning? We'll generally just need 2, and though I have occasional guests, I'm not buying the machine with the intent of lots of entertaining with it. Is the small reservoir an advantage (speed) or will I get frustrated waiting for it to recycle?

The Silvia has the larger capacity, and am I correct that it has a better/more powerful steamer? I dont mind having a learning curve, but I'm a bit intimidated by all the "love and attention" people describe "her" to need. Then there is the slightly higher price tag, but if that extra $200 means better espresso drinks for 10 years, clearly I'm up for it.

And then there are grinders......the Gaggia MDF is also on sale now, and the combo of the Classic with the MDF at $550 is SOOOOOO appealing. I'd like a grinder that can also do drip coffee, so that makes me nervous about the MDF. Can anyone comment on using it for coffee?

(I guess Baratza is coming out with one in February, less expensive than the Vario but similarly "adjustable".....I think it is a step up from the Virtuoso.....worth the wait?)

Thanks for any advice

My only advice is not to get the MDF grinder, for a little bit more you can get the Lelit PL53 grinder, it's much more capable and easier to use. Especialy with a new machine, and just learning how to use everything the MDF just makes the whole learning process much more difficult.

Of course the Lelit is not designed to do anything besides espresso, but I think that's a worthwhile trade-off (or you could just wait to see what the new baratza looks like).

anne wrote:Is the small reservoir an advantage (speed) or will I get frustrated waiting for it to recycle?

Like many former Silvia owners, the intrinsic delays of a single boiler pushed me to upgrade. If you're a latte lover, two drinks is the (barely) comfortable ceiling for either of the machines you're considering. You didn't mention your absolute budget. Having read the accounts of countless upgraders, if you cannot afford an HX, I recommend spending more on the grinder (e.g., the Baratza Vario) and less on the espresso machine with the assumption you'll upgrade later.

By the way, someday Jim Schulman will get around to publishing a review of the Bezzera BZ07. His offline comments have been quite positive. It's currently selling at an introductory price just under $1000. Another possibility is the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. In sharp contrast to the Silvia, it's an easy espresso machine to learn on, though it doesn't have the same level of build quality and popularity that the Rancilio enjoys.

Thank you. I should have been more specific about budget. I *could* spend $1000 total, but obviously would like to spend less.

HB, am I to understand you that I'd be *similarly* limited in volume of milk to steam with both of these units? I thought that with the Silvia that would be less of an issue with a 12 oz vs 3.5 oz reservoir (or tank?) sorry about vague terminology.

I'm getting less enamoured with the Gaggia grinder though.......am I right that for grinding for drip coffee and espresso, the Vario is a good one to consider? hehe- IF I do that, I'd be spending as much on the grinder as the espresso machine. I know that is not a bad move for a newbie, but it is a mental hurdle.

First of all, you should peruse Espresso Machines 101 and the Home Barista's Guide to Espresso. They cover all the basics and then some.

anne wrote:HB, am I to understand you that I'd be *similarly* limited in volume of milk to steam with both of these units? I thought that with the Silvia that would be less of an issue with a 12 oz vs 3.5 oz reservoir (or tank?) sorry about vague terminology.

You refer to the boiler, i.e., where the water is heated. The reservoir/tank is for (unheated) water storage until needed.

To your question, the issue isn't the steaming capacity of either unit, but the transition time from brew temperature to steam temperature. It's not too irksome if you're making one or two drinks since you could pull two espressos and steam enough milk for both, but it gets tedious if you want large lattes or more than two cappuccinos. Also keep in mind that small boiler espresso machines aren't steaming speed demons compared to most HX machines. Again, it's a non issue for one drink, a little tiresome for two, and quite irritating for three or more.

Given your budget, I would spend approximately half on the grinder (e.g., Baratza Vario, Mazzer Mini) and the remainder on the espresso machine. If you're willing to increase your budget, an entry-level HX machine like the Bezzera or barista-friendly lever like the Ponte Vecchio would keep upgraditus at bay for a long time. Otherwise, based on my informal observations from years of forum moderation, there's a strong likelihood you'll be asking for upgrade recommendations within 18 months.

Knowing this forum she will have a GS/3 in 18 months

Let me second what Dan has said: grinder first (resist the temptation to skimp), and machine second.

I have a Gaggia Coffee DeLuxe (similar to the Classic but without the 3-way solenoid), and used a Rancilio Rocky for several years. I also have a good friend with a Classic and a Gaggia MDF.

Everything Dan says is true (with the caveat that I've never owned/used a Silvia).

At these price points, I wouldn't buy an MDF or even a Rocky. I recently bought a Baratza Vario, and have been elated with its performance. I highly recommend the Vario or above (Mazzer SJ, etc.). Don't settle; you'll regret it. I cannot overstate the importance of the last two sentences.

I can confirm from experience that the Gaggia will do fine for one or two drinks, but no more. I would expect the same from the Silvia.

I've had my Gaggia for 5 years or so, and yes, I have a serious case of upgradeitis, but I've learned to live with the symptoms (for a while longer, anyway). I recently picked up a La Pavoni Pro, which helped alleviate some of my sickness (I still can't do a volume of drinks, but at least I can do a decent job of steaming milk).

You will hear this everywhere, but I can vouch for its truth: whatever your budget is, buy the best grinder you can afford, and then find the machine that fits with your remaining money. If buying a Vario/Mazzer grinder rules out the Silvia for budgetary reasons, no problem. You'll be happy with your setup, keeping in mind its known limitations.

But buying more machine and settling for less grinder will cause you nothing but heartache.

One of these days, a nice big HX machine will be sitting on my cabinet. But until then, the Gaggia does the best it can, and I'm good with that. For now.

I haven't owned a Silvia, but I've owned several Gaggias, including the Classic, the Coffee, and the Espresso. I've also owned an MDF grinder, so I can offer some comments on those devices.

The Classic is a good, reliable machine that's capable of making surprisingly good espresso. However, the small boiler does make it a bit slow for steaming milk, especially if you're making big gulp lattes. It does fine for 6 ounce cappuccinos, but for anything bigger you'll want a larger machine, preferably an HX or DB model. On the other hand, the small boiler can be an asset in making back to back drinks, since it recovers fast and goes from brew to steam and back pretty quickly. From what I hear, Silvia has a bigger boiler, which gives it more steam power but also slows down the transition for brewing to steaming.

I'd also recommend getting a different grinder than the MDF. While the MDF is a decent grinder in terms of the build quality, it lacks enough fine steps to make it usable for espresso. Usually the perfect setting is somewhere between one of the steps. You're better off with a stepless design like the Lelit or the new Baratza, or better yet get a used Mazzer Super Jolly. Then again, if you want to use your grinder for French press as well, then the Baratza Vario is probably best because you can switch fast between grind settings.

anne wrote:Thank you. I should have been more specific about budget. I *could* spend $1000 total, but obviously would like to spend less.
.............

Based on what you're looking at at WLL, you have a couple of choices:

Gaggia Classic w Rocky @ $850
Gaggia Classic w MDF @ $550

or Gaggia Classic + Vario ~$1k
Classic for $500+ ~400-500 for Vario (I don't price for the Vario)

You can get Gaggia Classic @ Whole Latte Love for $500, or Costco @ $400 http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.as...d=11469996)

If you can swing the $, I'd get the Vario. Gaggia Classic or Rocky? It seems that would be a toss-up but that price at Costco for the Classic seems good

Thanks. I think I'm going to go with the Gaggia classic and Vario. The classic is $399 at Wholelattelove for a couple more days, and I'd rather support them than Costco, if I can get myself to pull the trigger.

I feel like the more I learn the more questions I have.....

This will probably sound really ridiculous, but it *does* make sense to want a good grinder for coffee as well as espresso, right? I stopped using my "whirling blade" chopper about a year ago in favor of buying ground beans, hoping to improve my coffee's flavor, and I do think it helped, but my coffee is still never as good as at a good cafe. I'm hoping that freshly ground, *properly* ground beans will improve even my coffee. This is realistic, right?

And I know this is a loaded question, but what makes the Silvia better than the Gaggia classic? The more I read, the more similar they seem. Or is it just preference/personal opinion?

A month ago, I thought I could get home espresso for "a couple hundred" dollars. This has been a learning experience, for sure.