drgary - a question to bear in mind as you go through this exercise - if you were to pull 3 shots, back to back (within reason for the machine), how similar would they be in taste? Then, if they are similar enough to your palate, do you LIKE that taste?

If so, you've already answered the question that you posed.

You stated earlier that one of your goals was to gain information not only for yourself, but for others as well. It's tricky when dealing with something as subjective as taste. What I've found to be true for me may not necessarily be the same for you. I've decided, based on my experiences, that the answer is "Yes, there is a significant difference". In our collective pursuits, it's easy to lose sight of the relevance of subjectivity and get caught up in objective right or wrong; I've been guilty of that offense enough times as it is. I hope that you don't fall into the same trap. Instead, find a bigger, better mistake to make

For me, the shots that I had on the Breville that I tried were terrible, and uniformly so. The shots that I pulled on Silvia were inconsistent until I PIDed - this may speak more to my inability to temp-surf more than anything else. The shots that I pull on my Rituale are uniformly tasty, with the occasional glimpse into the promised land.


-s.

Sherman wrote:Perhaps Jason considers the HX flush akin to temperature surfing.

True. And one can vary the temperature by varying the length of the cooling flush . . .

To Sherman, all good points to which I agree. I'm trying to arrive at consistency to have a sense of controlling the quality. BTW, if you lived closer, I'd see if I could borrow the Rituale! Anyone else have a loaner available???

No takers?

Ok, to get down to business, the thread started by HB on CoffeeGeek that is linked above describes reverse temperature surfing as a more accurate method than the usual one. Here's what he says:

HB wrote:Normally when you temperature surf, you introduce water into the boiler, wait for the heating element to come on, then wait n seconds for the water to heat up to your target temperature. Problem is, my measurements showed variance, probably because split-second response can make a big difference (e.g., two seconds too much water and you're off by several degrees), not to mention "warm versus very hot" Silvia variations. I also noted that his machine put out a lot of water, almost 10oz in 30 seconds. Again, that makes it hard to temperature surf accurately by introducing water.

So instead, we tried the other direction, hence why we call it "reverse temperature surfing." We introduced water until the boiler came on. Then we waited for the heating element to turn off. Then we plotted the drop off in temperature (1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 4 minutes, 5 minutes... really boring stuff). By trial and error, we found that 2 minutes after the boiler clicks off with a well heated Silvia, the temperature reached 201F. At first we would get variances of 196, 197, 199, 199... and then 201, 201, ..., 201. It was that dead-on, time after time after time.

I'm going to try that method, because it should get more consistent results.

To the issue of getting something that tastes good, BTW, I'm still not completely skeptical on my current low-end machine if I can develop consistent technique, per above. I made a latte this morning, filtered it through a Melitta paper (because of my cholesterol issue), and my wife tasted it. She asked me if I'd put chocolate in the coffee, which I hadn't.

The idea is a machine is a machine and will perform consistently if operated the same way. If I can figure out what makes the parameters change and can control for that, just maybe I can consistently make good lattes.

So, more on results soon, with my high-end, styrofoam/meat thermometer "thermocouple" and my gleaming plastic Saeco machine!

zin1953 wrote:And one can vary the temperature by varying the length of the cooling flush . . .

Point well taken. The only difference, then, seems to be the range of temperatures. I'd see ranges of 190F to 212F on my Silvia measured with the styro+thermapen at the grouphead, all depending on which point during the heating cycle I chose to start the brew cycle.

Well, then there's also the adjustability issue. I can get much tighter limits by adjusting the pstat setting and deadband, to the point where there would be little to no cooling flush. Granted, steaming ability would suffer and my pstat would be chattering like a Floridian in a Chicago winter, but that's a different dragon to be slayed (slain? slayered? slayyd? *Wyld Stallynz flashback ensues*)

Also, there's consistency. I can more consistently and accurately flush to my desired start temp, anywhere from 198-202F, with my HX that I ever could with my un-PIDed Silvia. There are other differences between the HX and SBDU that I consider advantageous to HX, but they aren't relevant to this dicussion.

Any machine that has a pressurestat can achieve similar results. I'd think that any SBDU without a PID would be hard-pressed to do the same. It is because of a combination of this adjustability that exists in HX machines and the wide-deadband non-adjustable thermostats of SBDUs that I'd disagree with Jason's statement

zin1953 wrote:generally speaking, it is required less with an SBDU than with an HX.

but again, this is only my experience on a SBDU (Silvia) and HX (Rituale). We can each have different experiences and both be correct - I just don't want to give the impression that either one of us speaks the gospel truth.

Long story short, prove it to yourself first, then talk about your experiences.

-s.

An important point seems to be missing from the discussion of thermo block machines. If I have missed this in my rush please forgive me.

VOLTAGE & POWER

Theoretically, Power = Voltage X Current

Thermo block machines work much better in countries with 220 volt versus 110 volt as in the U.S.A. The reason is that 220 volts provides almost twice the power to the thermo block. This results in much quicker temperature response times, better control etc. Hence the good reviews of thermo block machines outside the U.S.

This is another reason and possibly the main reason why in the U.S. you will encounter more lower cost boiler machines making decent espresso than thermo block machines. Frankly, (Edited later: because of this) I would never buy a 110 volt thermo block machine in the U.S.

Hope this helps
Geoffrey

Geoffrey:

That's very interesting and hadn't been mentioned by anyone else. The experience and wisdom of the members of this site are amazing!

Just to add an absurd twist, I've found a PID kit online for $149 that may work. This all brings to mind an old movie starring Peter Sellers called "The Mouse that Roared"! Someone else described modding a Saeco as trying to hot rod a Datsun 210, so please understand I'm doing this with a sense of humor.

Here's the info about that kit, which isn't specifically for this model but may work for other Saeco owners. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=61 I've sent info to the PID kit maker to see what they suggest.

I also found a clever solution by someone who strapped a cheap digital thermometer to the boiler of a different Saeco model, and although it didn't read accurately for temperature at the brew group, it did help him consistently find the sweet spot for his machine. http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/344360

Meanwhile, I'll do the temp surfing experiment when I have time.

Putting Mighty Mouse on the Test Track

Reverse temperature surfing: The method seems to work with my low-cost, thermoblock machine. I depressed the steam button for 30 seconds, released it, then allowed increasing time intervals to allow temperature drop-off in the boiler. I then depressed the brew button for 25 seconds to obtain measurements. My machine puts out exactly 4 oz water in that amount of time. This may cause some temperature drop-off with a consumer level machine like this but it may be misleading since pulling an actual double shot would comprise 2 oz or less of water. The thermometer seemed to lose 2 degrees F from the start of the blank shot to the end. I tried one set of results last weekend and tested them today and found that they were consistent, at least through readings via my Pampered Chef analog meat thermometer inserted diagonally into a styrofoam cup. I realized there may be some additional temperature drop-off because of the air gap hot water passes through before reaching the bottom of the cup. My measurements below were done with a cup that's 4 7/8 inches high. To check out the temperature loss with that large a cup, I cut one down to 2 1/2 high and found there's about a 2 degree F temperature loss due to cup height. The 2 1/2 cup fills almost entirely in 25 seconds, reducing the air gap. (Use such a small cup at your own risk! I used a robust, waterproof oven glove to avoid burns.) Still there must be some temperature loss compared to sending water into a portafilter filled with grinds that just about come up to the shower head.

What temperature measurements matter? When dialing in an inexpensive machine, I don't believe that knowing the exact temperature in the portafilter is key. I believe it's more a matter of trying for the sweet spot range within your measurements and that consistent technique, bean quality, grind, dose and tamp are more relevant once you've got more temperature control. The latter elements and educating one's taste buds may comprise the long learning curve of espresso making.

Reverse temperature surfing measurements Here are my temperature measurements timed from shut-off of a 30 second press of the steam button:

Immediate: 200
1 minute: 198
1.5 minutes: 198
2 minutes: 196
2.5 minutes: 194
3 minutes: 192

If the actual temperatures at the group aren't enough for best results, I can of course run this reverse temperature surfing routine while holding the steam button for 45 seconds. In other words, since the machine can heat water hot enough for steam, I should be able to temperature surf to 201, 203, etc. Given the imprecise method of measuring temperature, I'll probably best know this by tasting the results for bitterness (a sign of too high a temperature) or sourness (a sign of temperature being too low).

PID for finer temperature control? In consideration of other members who may have a limited budget but may want to learn espresso technique, I have been corresponding with a technician at Auber to see if this particular machine can be PID'd (adding digital temperature control for regulation of the boiler within 1 degree F). I sent pictures of the insides of my machine so they could compare color coding with the wiring of other Saeco machines they've successfully PID'd. They've been responsive but haven't gotten back to me yet. [Update: The tech at Auber said putting a multimeter on my machine's wiring would help him evaluate its prospects for PID. So I had him search and recommend a very inexpensive one that costs $11 because it only needs to measure resistance. The meter's on the way, and I'll PID this machine if I can.] People who are reading this thread and have Saeco machines that Auber has tested should be able to PID. Some readers might ask, "is it worth PIDing a machine where the PID costs more than the machine?" "Or, are you better off saving the cost of the PID for an upgrade?" That's a personal choice, I guess. If you don't anticipate having the budget for a Silvia for the foreseeable future and you can achieve consistent temperature control, why not?

Different machines, different use patterns. A review of the excellent comments above about the difference between a very well-built machine like Silvia and a consumer machine like mine suggests that this may be a matter of how you use it. I generally pull one shot in the morning before going to work. At most I may pull a shot for me and my wife. We don't have many dinner parties, so it's not important for us to be able to pull multiple shots where the boiler capacity of a Silvia might be essential for multiple espressos and steaming a lot of milk. But then I don't know if my machine wouldn't achieve consistent temperature and steam with a PID, even for that larger workload. I doubt the Saeco Magic Cappuccino Plus would quickly break down as consumers writing about these say they've used them without problems for five years.

When it comes to espresso quality and the comparative "batting averages" for consumer versus prosumer and better machines, we may have another example of personal preference. Some people may be satisfied with settling on a particular bean from a particular roaster and then fine tune machine temperature, grinder and dosing for that. Even then, grinder settings generally go finer as the days pass and beans dry out, but this would be the same with any level of machine, wouldn't it? Will I be able to try different beans at different temperatures? Sure. If I have PID controls it may be easier to take the advice of others with better machines using those beans.

Pressure. I have contacted Saeco and one of their support technicians there said that this machine with its pressurized portafilter is designed to brew at 9 bars pressure. I don't know what pressure it puts out with that arrangement or with a portafilter like mine where the pressure device is removed. I've read that people with Silvias have found ways to adjust the pressure. To measure pressure in my machine, I would need to build a pressure gauge into the portafilter. I don't think it's worth making that effort at this level of machine and without knowing how to make pressure adjustments. The Saeco people have been unable to provide a wiring diagram and are not enthused about helping someone figure out how to change how their machine works.

Steaming challenges. I'm still experimenting with the steaming capability of my machine. It has a metal covering on a plastic wand, and the wand doesn't extend past the water tray, which is awkward. The metal cover has two side holes and one hole on the tip. I've read elsewhere on this site that a single hole is better for steaming, so I've simply removed the metal cover and am following some of the basics of steaming technique written elsewhere on this site. When I use the steam function, I turn it on and let water purge before delivering steam to milk. I'm starting to get better results but am also hampered by using only skim milk or soy milk, again a personal preference, and I'm not that interested in producing latte art, which requires consistent microbubbles, just a good tasting milk drink. From what I've read though, if you want better steaming capacity, Silvia's the way to go with a single-hole wand (some had more than one hole and people apparently weren't happy with those). [Later add: Moving to a smaller, standard-sized frothing cup has improved steaming results significantly.]

Inexpensive machine as learning tool. Will I be able to produce something like a thick double ristretto with a machine like this? [Added since original: Checking on another thread, probably not, because a much more capable machine like one with an E61 brew group does preinfusion automatically that starts at lower pressure and builds. A cheap machine like mine probably delivers its usual pressure right away. There may be other reasons an E61 machine is very good at ristretto (restricted dose). Also, the most advanced machines being developed today are adding an increasing amount of both pressure and temperature control, so the state of the art is far advanced over a consumer machine like mine, even with mods.] I can experiment with grind, dose and tamping once I've got consistent temperature control, but I just don't know [if I can get sufficiently satisfactory results]. However, attempting to do so will either yield such results or more likely allow me to improve my technique with a challenging machine while accruing the budget for at least a Silvia with a PID. [Apparently there are PIDs for Silvias that will allow preinfusion but the ad I read about that says the cup tastes the same as without preinfusion that is simply done to help prevent bad extractions (channeling, etc.), so the operation of a Silvia may not be up to an E61 machine, a lever machine, or other technologies, which is why enthusiasts very often upgrade.]

I've been in contact again with Auber Instruments and they're interested in seeing if they can develop a PID kit for my Saeco model. I'll send them my machine in a couple of weeks and will update this thread with the results several weeks from now.

Update on 4/6: Sent machine to Auber on 4/5 and they'll work on it next week, installing a PID and determining what functions are subject to computer control. I'll post the results in a couple of weeks.

Mighty Mouse is ... a Mouse! (confirming Jim Schulman's comment on batting averages early in this thread)

I've just received a detailed report from Suyi Liu at Auber Instruments after he inspected the Saeco Magic Cappuccino Plus machine I sent him. It turns out that particular machine is not amenable to PID (computer control) aftermarket modification. I'll share Suyi's report because some readers may be interested in the technical details. He was so helpful and supportive on this project that I would strongly consider Auber Instruments for doing a PID. They offer computer control kits for a variety of Saeco and Gaggia machines and the Rancilio Silvia. Here's a link to their page with those offerings: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6

So for now, I'll practice temperature surfing and trying new Blue Bottle varietals and roasts to develop my skills and tastes while saving up for a gently used or inexpensive refurb E61 HX. From reading others' posts on this site, that seems to be the next level upgrade I'll want. I had originally thought that temperature, pressure and timing might be controllable with PID without necessitating the heavy brass in an E61 brew group or a Rancilio Silvia or similar. Reading other posts on this site I've found some where people like very simple, old lever machines that can be PID controlled and don't have massive brew groups. I'm also excited by reading about Bill Crossland's efforts, where he's developing a prosumer machine that is extremely controllable and does away with the heavy and expensive brew group. Perhaps his machine or something like it is in my upgrade path several years ahead! Here's a link to his comments about his machine in development: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/475553#475553 For those who don't know, Bill Crossland was instrumental in developing the high-end La Marzocco GS3. For a review of that machine on this site, look here: http://www.home-barista.com/pros-perspective-gs3.html

Here's Suyi's report with minor copy edits that improve readability but don't change meaning.

"Hello Gary,

I opened the machine and did some study on it. Here is the report for you.

1) This machine is very different than what I originally thought. The two thermostats on the top of the boiler are not being used for brew and steam control like the original Saeco. They are two identical thermal protection thermostats rated for 175C. They are for overheat protection. One to protect the hot wire and other protect the neutral wire. (This is the first machine that I saw with double thermal protection, a very safe machine). The temperature of the boiler is controlled by a 50 Kohm NTC thermistor mounted beside the thermostat. The one has a pair of thin wire. The thermistor is connected to a microprocessor and heater is regulated by a triac (like a solid stat relay).

2) I installed a thermocouple on top of boiler and used a thermometer to monitor how the machine worked. Here is what I found.

a) The brew temperature control uses the on/off control mode. When temperature drops to 186F, the heater turns on. When my sensor reaches 190F, the heater turns off. Since the machine is in the on/off mode, it overshot to 206F. At the steady state, with ambient at about 70F, the boiler temperature swings between 186 and 206F. This is a little better than the mechanical thermostat controlled machine, but is much worse than a PID controlled machine.

b) The steam position also uses the on/off control mode. The shutoff temperature is around 240F. I didn't study the temperature swing in details.

c). I believe that when the "Illy" switch is on, the machine is in PID control mode. When there is no disturbance such as pulling a shot, the temperature of the boiler stays at 204F +/- 1F. Without the factory's detailed information, it will be very difficult to know the exact scheme used for the control. I have to tap in to the machine sensor to read it and monitor current follow to verify that. That will be too much work to do. However, based on my many years' experience on the temperature control, I am pretty sure that this a PID control mode. The only problem for this PID control is that user can't adjust the temperature based on their taste or the coffee.

Based on these findings, my conclusion is that with this machine it is practically impossible to add another PID mod. Here are some of the reasons: 1) It is very difficult to find another place to mount another temperature sensor on the boiler. There are just no places. We need to leave the original thermistor there, otherwise, the machine will not work. Removing the thermal protection thermostat will affect the safety of the machine; 2) If we add an independent temperature control, we have to figure out a way to fool the machine's microprocessor so these don't won't work against each other. It could be very complicated and expensive to do that.

Four years ago, we made a machine very similar to that. It is called Precisia. The machine has a very similar control board. The difference is that we have a digital temperature display and it allows the user to adjust the temperature. I believe the electronics are much better. However, the problem is that all the mechanical parts are made in China. They are not up to the Saeco's quality. It needs a lot of maintenance. And for the price it was sold for, it is not worth the trouble. So we discontinued it and switched to working on the kit for more expensive machines. But everyone who had that machine liked the quality of the coffee it produced. One thought I have is to modify our board to fit into this machine. However, unless we modify the box, there is no window for a temperature display and keypad for users to change the settings."