That's very interesting, Owen.

Is there 100% consistency with espresso? One of the days when sampling a Blue Bottle "reference shot," the barista told me it tasted a little "bright" that day. So if they don't get complete consistency, who would? Still, it was delicious.

I guess as I learn more about this I'll also find that there's an acceptable range to my results. With your equipment and experience, how much of the 20% remainder goes down the sink? How many of the inferior shots are still drinkable, especially when compared to your starter equipment?

Gary

I don't think there's any such thing as 100% consistency with espresso making. Even champion baristas sometimes throw shots away. Of course, part of the reason is that their standards are very high, so a shot that might seem great to you or me might be a sink shot to them.

I've noticed that my own standards have also gotten a lot higher than they used to be, so a shot that might have been terrific to me a few years ago is now barely adequate. But this is because I learned a lot about what good espresso can and should be in the last three or four years, and my gear and technique have improved to the point where I can expect good results most of the time.

Generally speaking, the better your equipment (assuming good technique and high quality beans), the more likely you are to get good results. I can be almost certain of pulling a decent shot with my current setup, whereas I used to struggle to pull decent shots half the time with my old Gaggia machine and MDF grinder. But I still get occasional bad shots. It's just part of the randomness of the process, but that's OK.

That's why I'm on Home-Barista. To get experienced advice like this.

With the freedom of a little weekend time, I thought I would experiment with the machine I've got (lacking budget to get better equipment right now), but this time without expectations that I'm working with something like Silvia. So if I remember correctly the issues for creating quality espresso from the machine side are temperature control and pressure.

To start I wondered whether this thing could be temperature surfed. To get a preliminary take on this, I followed an idea I'd seen in a post by Jim Piccinich, which is to insert a rapid-acting thermometer angled downward through the side of a foam cup and place that under the shower screen. I have a meat thermometer, so I used that. See http://www.coffeegeek.com/opinions/javajim/10-23-2002

This machine warms up pretty quickly compared to a Silvia with all of its brass. After about a minute or so the controls indicate it's up to temperature. To be fair to the manufacturer they do instruct users to run 4 oz. water through the portafilter to heat it before pulling a shot. That instruction is also given in greater detail in the article linked above.

So understand that this is just preliminary to see if it might be done. With the portafilter removed, I ran about 4 oz hot water into the cup, and it measured 180 F. Now the temperature light was blinking to show low temperature, so when it came back to steady on, I ran some water and measured again, and it was 190 F. Kind of like what I'd read when temperature surfing the Silvia, running it when it's just back to temperature can be catching it when the heating element is on through the shot. I then tried turning on the steaming function for about 30 seconds and turning that off and instead running water through the shower head. The light was blinking fast, which indicated overheating. Water came through at about 200 F. at this point. I expect there's some temperature loss of course as the water empties into the cup. But I did get the answer I was looking for, which is that you can temperature surf this low-end Saeco machine. I'll soon post some more temperature surfing details after re-reading instructions for temperature surfing the Silvia.

Since writing the above I found this interesting article on reverse temperature surfing, which may be best for my needs, given that I generally only pull a shot or two for myself in the morning. See http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/18247

Gary, I would respectfully caution you against over-analysis (which, I know, can be an occupational hazard).

For a very long time, I had an SBDU machine (the same class as a Silvia). Now, back in the days before Al Gore invented the internet, there was no home-barista or coffeegeek from which one could seek (and perhaps achieve) enlightenment. It was a depressing, isolating place, each individual turning inward and struggling for answers. But considering there is a two-stage thermostat on an SBDU -- one set to brew temp; the other for steam temp -- generally speaking, not a lot of temperature surfing was required. Nor is it with any SBDU. (Of course, people can and do temperature surf a Silvia, install PIDs, and so on. Some people are also more fixated than others, but that's neither here nor there.)

The Silvia takes longer to heat up because it has more brass and, thus, is more stable -- less prone to wild swings in temperature. (My current machine is even larger and takes longer than a Silvia, but it is even better adjusted and thermally stable. However, being an HX machine, temperature surfing is essential.)

Do not misunderstand. Temperature surfing can be necessary with an SBDU, but -- again -- generally speaking, it is required less with an SBDU than with an HX.

Cheers,
Jason

Hi Jason,

What? Save me work?

BTW, I love your anonymous quote and have already been using it!

One of the things I wonder about with my dinky machine is whether I'm brewing at the right temperature, period. No hifalutin pretensions about intensely precise adjustments for different beans, etc. I thought that if I just find out when it's putting out something about 190 - 195 F., I'd be in reasonable shape for pulling better shots. In other words, it seemed it would be something akin to dialing in the machine. Am I wrong?

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks!

zin1953 wrote: Temperature surfing can be necessary with an SBDU, but -- again -- generally speaking, it is required less with an SBDU than with an HX.

???????
Sounds backwards to me. I never temp surf my HX machine- just flush to temp for the first pull when it has been idling for a while. With Silvia, it was critical to temp surf if any sort of consistency was desired. maybe it's a nomenclature thing, but I didn't get that..

zin1953 wrote: But considering there is a two-stage thermostat on an SBDU -- one set to brew temp; the other for steam temp -- generally speaking, not a lot of temperature surfing was required. Nor is it with any SBDU. (Of course, people can and do temperature surf a Silvia, install PIDs, and so on. Some people are also more fixated than others, but that's neither here nor there.)

The Silvia takes longer to heat up because it has more brass and, thus, is more stable -- less prone to wild swings in temperature. (My current machine is even larger and takes longer than a Silvia, but it is even better adjusted and thermally stable. However, being an HX machine, temperature surfing is essential.)

I disagree with your assessment of a two-stage thermostat, as well as the notion that "not a lot of temperature surfing [sic]is required". My Silvia has separate 2 thermostats, one each for brewing and for steaming. Randy G. also has wiring diagrams on his website that show how Silvia is wired, which leads me to believe that this wiring method is common for all Silvias. I can't speak authoritatively for any other SBDU. As far as the surfing part, I switched to a PID, and couldn't imagine going back. It was, at the time, a world of difference in terms of consistency. On this point, we may agree to disagree; for my money, surfing a Silvia was required.

One of the struggles with any machine in this class is temperature stability, due to the use of inexpensive button-type thermostats which can have tolerances of ~30F. This means that the thermostat clicks "ON" and engages the heating element when it senses a temperature of 190F, and "OFF" when it senses a temperature of 220F.

When the "Steam" switch is engaged, the brew thermostat is essentially overridden, and the steam thermostat engages, cycling between ~250F and 280F(at least, this is based on measurements taken from my PID).

Regardless of which thermostat is controlling the heating element, there is still the issue of overshoot - that is, just because the heating element has been turned off, there is still residual heat that is delivered to the boiler. There's another thread, either here or on CG, that gives the analogy of driving a car at 60 MPH then slamming on the brakes just as you hit the stop sign. I think that's appropriate.

Temperature surfing, as it relates to SBDU machines, is the dark art of guesstimating when in the on-off cycle to hit the "brew" switch and engage the pump. This is similar in concept to surfing for a HX, but different in execution. When temp-surfing a HX, you're still guessimating, but it's for the differential temperature the grouphead and the boiler based on the amount of water in the HX, the configuration of the grouphead, etc. Overshoot is less of an issue (at least, it is on my Rituale, because the boiler is controlled by a pressurestat with adjustable deadband, which seems much less tolerant of temperature fluctuation).

In a thermoblock machine, there may be merit in a temp surfing experiment, but I'd think that it would require some knowledge of the brew temperature. In my experience, 195F is too low for most coffees that I've tried - 200F ±2° has been the outer limits of acceptable taste. At around 195, just about everything was way too sour for my palate.

Best,
-s.

Randy G. wrote:With Silvia, it was critical to temp surf if any sort of consistency was desired. maybe it's a nomenclature thing, but I didn't get that..

+1. Randy, I suspect that you and I have had similar experiences. Actually, having the luxury of your adventures in espresso to guide my own and allow me to make bigger, different mistakes, I'm pretty sure that our experiences are similar.

drgary - I'd strongly recommend that you head over to Randy's website. The information contained there is pretty solid stuff, IMHO.

Perhaps Jason considers the HX flush akin to temperature surfing.

Best,
-s.

Checked out Randy's website. You are so right ... thanks for that and the temperature guidance.