Problem:
I am looking at getting my first espresso machine. Which of the following 2 options would be the best combination for a beginner?

Options:
1) Rancilio L7 HX, paired with a Compak K10 grinder.
2) Alex Duetto II, paired with a B-Vario grinder.

Assumptions:
1) I will be using good, freshly roasted beans, ordered weekly. (Redbird, Intelligentsia, etc.)
2) I have an acceptable capacity to learn. (Whatever, that means.)

Given:
1) I really hate bitter coffee.
2) I tend to like things that are smooth, and sweet.

Finally:
Of the 2 options, which would most people prefer, with 2-3 years of experience?

Thank you,
Jim

It sounds like you are on the right track, but how did you arrive at deciding between those two machines? There are plenty of consumer HX machines that are cheaper than the Duetto.

The two grinders you're looking at are extremely different. Do you have any preference for specific features?

There's not really any question that the Compak is a "better" espresso grinder, but it's definitely not designed for home use. There is significantly more waste clearing the chute at the start of every session (unless you single dose, which I find very tedious), and it is very large. The Vario is quite clearly designed for the home user from the ground up, and timed dosing is extremely convenient. The purge at the beginning of every session is much smaller, as is the grinder itself. It's also a fair bit cheaper, obviously ($500 vs $1250+).

I love my K10, but I like the way the Vario works so much I switched to it almost exclusively for several months. I find it much more convenient when pulling multiple shots, and less imposing on the counter. I only recently switched back to the K10, because I prefer the beautiful (and tasty) shots I get with it practically every time. I also like barely ever having to touch the grind adjustment, which is a nice feature of large conical grinders.

how did you arrive at deciding between those two machines?

The HX is used and fairly cheap, therefore I could add a titan grinder when I got it. The Duetto is the new machine that I've had my eye on, but I would need to use my B-Vario for at least 1-2 years with it.

To rephrase, if I get a HX it will most likely be a used one, and then add a titan grinder. If I get a new Duetto, I will need to use my B-Vario for a while.

The two grinders you're looking at are extremely different. Do you have any preference for specific features?

I prefer to single dose. (For drip I single dose my B-Vario.)


I guess I am trying to decide if a used machine (inexpensive), matched with a titan grinder, would produce tastier shots, then a new Duetto, matched with a B-Vario...the cost would be about the same.

Presuming the used machine is in great shape, either combination will work fine. (Note: I have an HX, see no reason why I need a DB, and advise you to take all comments with how many ever grains of salt you deem appropriate.)

Remember that -- in broad general terms -- a great grinder paired with a mediocre machine will produce better results than a mediocre grinder paired with a great machine. That said, neither of these grinders nor the machines can be described as "mediocre," so -- again, presuming the used HX is in fine working order -- this would not be a concern.

Again, in broad general terms, the grind quality of the B-Vario is most often compared to a Mazzer Super Jolly. While not a "titan," it's certainly a more-than-acceptable commercial grinder.

In other words, whichever choice you make, you're going to be happy . . .

Cheers,
Jason

I would add this just because you mentioned you hate bitterness. While I have not tried K10, I have Baratza Vario and I did/do experience occasional bitterness with it that disappeared completely when I bought Versalab M3 grinder.

I've been having the same kind of personal debate since I can't afford both a great grinder and the machine I really want right now. Should I get the grinder I want, and then get a less expensive machine, or get the machine I want and a less expensive grinder?

For me it's come down to this decision (and I'd love to hear what other people think about my logic): Do I want to be able to get consistently good results from any coffee I try, or would I rather get great results from some coffees and OK results from others?

1. Some coffees just taste much better at higher or lower temps, and sometimes have narrow ranges that work well - or I just have a preference for the taste of some coffees at certain temps. Getting the machine dialed in and consistently hitting those temps should be easier with a DB. So if I want to try a new coffee every week, or a couple new coffees during the same day a DB will get better results easier, especially for some of the trickier coffees.

2. A good grinder will give you better results from any coffee, so as long as the beans I'm using aren't particularly demanding temperature wise, or just work best at the temps that are easiest to get consistently, a "titan" grinder plus good HX will give me tastier espresso. The trade off is that it will probably be more difficult for me to dial in temps consistently for some coffees, and those shots will be more hit or miss.

So, do I want to play around with lots of coffees and try different temps (easily), or do I want to know that I'm getting great results from some coffees and have to work harder, or settle for a little less consistency with others? Personally I'm also looking at the Duetto II, but considering a "titan" grinder + Bezzera BZ07 - there's the chance that that combo would deliver good enough results to keep machine upgraditis at bay for a long time, of course if I moved and was able to plumb-in I'd be kicking myself for not getting the Duetto - just one more thing to consider

Grinder, grinder, grinder. Shop for a grinder, THEN the espresso machine. I have a $7.50 used Krups thermoblock machine that makes nice (or at least to say, drinkable) espresso when paired with my Kony. Even if it means using a "lesser" preparation method for a while, get a great grinder first, then wait if you have to. I went from Silvia/Rocky to Vibiemme Domobar Super/Kony (I am E-61 prejudiced), and I have not regretted it for a moment. The difference between the two setups would take a website to explain..

I vote for hx espresso machine and k10 wbc grinder...if u haven't seen this article yet, it's well worth a read;
http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html

Thanks, for the replies.

I asked the question the way I did because of the following quote from another_jim.

another_jim wrote:Personally, I'd rather use a consistent 1K catering machine like the Bezzeras, Oscar or Expobar Office, along with a top grinder, than a GS3 or Speedster along with the Mini.

The following quotes from this thread seem to confirm what another_jim said.

Bob_McBob wrote:I only recently switched back to the K10, because I prefer the beautiful (and tasty) shots I get with it practically every time.

tekomino wrote:you mentioned you hate bitterness. While I have not tried K10, I have Baratza Vario and I did/do experience occasional bitterness with it that disappeared completely when I bought Versalab M3 grinder.

Randy G. wrote:Grinder, grinder, grinder. Shop for a grinder, THEN the espresso machine. I have a $7.50 used Krups thermoblock machine that makes nice (or at least to say, drinkable) espresso when paired with my Kony.

Bob_M wrote:I vote for hx espresso machine and k10 wbc grinder...

All the above quotes are from people that have titan-class grinders, and the verdict seems unanimous....get the big grinder first...then, get the best machine I can afford.

So it looks like I'll be getting a K10 WBC, and possibly a Rancilio L7.

Thanks, for taking the time to help.
Jim

Two things. From your profile, it seems like you already have a Vario. So I am assuming you are selling the Vario when you buy the K10?* Or is the choice to add a DB machine or an HX + grinder? Also, in terms of bitterness, you are going to find that temperature / beans / roast have much more effect on bitterness than the grinder.

*PM me if this is the case.