I know that you might be tired of this type of posts - but nevertheless, here is another "what to buy???" post...

My Gaggia Classic is getting tired and I've decided to move up a notch to an E-61. Trying to make my mind up about which is not easy (as I'm sure you all know), and it's further complicated by the small choice of locally available options in Hong Kong where I live.

I've narrowed it down to these:

* Fiorenzato Volante (or Bricoletta) plumbed in with a rotary pump from a local supplier (about US$1,700).

* A custom plumbed in version of Expobar Brewtus III, with two 1.5 liter boilers, 1200W heating elements, a PID and rotary pump (slightly different specs than the WLL Brewtus III) from a local suppler (just over US$2,000).

* An ECM Mechanika III, with a tank and a vibration pump - which the manufacturer will sell to me at wholesale price, since they don't have a Hong Kong agent (just under US$1,500 plus shipping).

The Fiorenzato seems like a decent price for what the reviews say is a great and reliable machine (and the rotary pump is nice).
The Expobar seems like a good deal for a double boiler - but although most reviews are very positive about the Brewtus models there would seem to be some concerns about quality. There are many more reviews to be found for that machine though - so perhaps that's why?
The ECM is referred to as the "Rolls Royce" of espresso machines but marketing aside, there seems to be very few owners or reviews out there. It's a very good price though.

I should say I make 2-3 large-ish cappuccinos every morning and a couple of espressos in the afternoon. Occasionally much more when we have guests. In any case - either of these machines would be fine for my needs and a double boiler might even be overkill.

Any comments or advice?

Thanks!
Claus

Claus,

The hard thing about answering your question is that hardly anyone has first hand experience at all three. BTW, What grinder are you using?

As a Volante owner, I've been quite happy with my machine especially after installing Eric's adapter. Eric's adapter though has shown me how variable the heat output can be if I'm slightly off on my timing. Hx flushing in a plumbed in unit is a breeze and even more so when your drip pan is plumbed, tho I still use a cup for initial flush so I can rinse the PF after pulls and a bowl for wiggle rinsing to keep the drain lines cleaner. STILL, I got envious when visiting another members house and saw his Vibiemme double boiler in action. In a word effortless, another word quiet - more than the Volante. Not that this would decide MY purchase but the Volante has some ratings described by one vendor as:

And, to boot, this machine has an ETL rating for NSF 4 and UL 197 - the highest electrical and safety standards which allows it to be used inside restaurants and cafes. In fact, most local health departments not only request it, but require NSF approval. ETL Approval assures you the factory and machine production is inspected every three months for providing high quality and high safety standards.

How easy is it for you to get parts and service on any of these machines, should be a consideration. Sooner or later something will go wrong "what can go wrong will go wrong". Mine has already been in the shop. Brewtus has a big following and you've probably found a ton of web information on it. It is up to you to know how precise your taste buds will be to incremental changes in the temperature of the pull. I'm not sure I have the "right stuff" BUT I would like to have more accuracy hitting that method that gets me that sweet shot I love from the beans I love. For me its a combo of my method and I believe my temp control and a PID double boiler would remove one more variable. If you haven't already, do a search off my name and you'll find a pictorial thread I posted on the Volante and other hopefully helpful remarks. Mike McKoffee is also an excellent, highly knowledgeable source.

Again, what grinder are you using? It will make a BIG difference with all of these machines.

E

Hi Ed,

Thanks for your comments. Your "Fiorenzato Volante, another look" was actually one of the posts I've read earlier as part of my research - and I found it very helpful! In fact, should I end up with a Volante I'm sure that I'll revisit that post several times for tips.

My grinder is a stepless Macap M4. I had the luck to come across a guy here in Hong Kong who had one he had never really used for sale for less than US$200. Now I'm trying not to blow my savings on the grinder on a more expensive espresso machine

Claus

Good for you Claus, when I started writing the reply I saw that I could no longer see your list of equipment on the post a reply page, so that's why I was asking. Are there places that service any of these machines in Hong Kong? I too had a Gaggia Classic, I ran it into the ground after a couple of rebuilds, glad to see you're taking the forward leap rather than the sideways one I did into a Silvia.

Well, service is potentially a bit of a problem as you never really can tell with these Hong Kong agents.

Both the Expobar and the Fiorenzato vendors are dedicated coffee and espresso equipment vendors though - so I guess that's as good as it gets around here. The ECM could pose a problem if the machine needs a major overhaul but I have no doubt that spare parts would be easily obtainable from the manufacturer (and they say they'll supply spare parts for free within the warranty period).

The safest bets for service would be for me to move up another notch and get a Dalla Corte Mini or a La Spaziale S1 - both from good local vendors. These are both very nice machines but both beyond the US$2,000 range...

Hi Claus,

I wouldn't worry much about service problems. I'd be willing to bet Paul Pratt here in Hong Kong can fix just about anything! He certainly did a service on my friends ECM.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Chris,

Yeah, I've come across Paul's restoration page - and it was actually a guy from his company Just-Java who wanted to sell me a Dalla Corte Mini in stead of a heat exchanger machine

A good point though, which means either machine I'm looking at would still be an option...

Whats the damage on a new Dalla Corte Mini in HKD?

Cheers, Chris

HK$22,500 - including a "professional barista toolkit".

Claus

If you can afford it and like the look of it, go for the Dalla Corte! I have heard first hand from some people that know far more than me that they are excellent. Having said that, budget always come into play. Of the other options, I previously had an e61 and they are great. Mine was a plumbed in rotary ECM, but made in Italy rather than Germany so effectively a different company. It sounds like you have the ability to plumb in, if this is the case, its a real luxury and should definitely factor into your decision making.

Good luck, Chris

Well, I did do a lot of reading on it - but as much as I like the idea of the Dalla Corte, it's still another almost USD850 on top of the Brewtus. I'm also not sure I like the looks of the machine to be honest.

I tried out the Brewtus III variant (it's called Leva 2 here) at the vendor's showroom today and I must say it was very pleasant to use - and very easy to make great espresso and micro foamed milk. Perhaps not he most beautiful of the machines I'm considering but at least I had the option of trying it out. And I also liked the guy who runs the shop. Although this English is pretty poor, he's passionate about coffee machines and I sense his after sales support would be quite good. He would need about 4 weeks to deliver so I'll have to make up my mind soon...

And I do like the idea of a plumbed in rotary model as you say.

Claus

Well there is alot to be said about having some 'hands on' time, and if you like the vendor as well then thats a big plus. I ran my previous machine for around 2 years before I plumbed it in. Took most of a day to sort out with problems locating plumbing stuff in Hong Kong, but it was well worth it and have never looked back since.

For the plumbing - what kind of stuff did you need? And did you find it complicated to hook up?

My kitchen has a bit of a weird layout which means I actually have my espresso machine on top of the washing machine. This means that I have an outlet and a drain right next to it. I'm hoping that would make the plumbing in reasonably straight-forward.

Cheers,
Claus

I too used my washing machine outlet, but needed to build a 'spaghetti junction' to split it for the washing machine, dishwasher and coffee machine... all of which unfortunately used different threads. Hookup quite straightforward, just sometimes finding parts can be problematic due to language difficulties. I headed into Wan Chai and eventually found some fittings, another friend found some at a hardware store in Discovery Bay.

Depending on line pressure, an adjustable pressure regulator valve is a good idea. And its essential to have a good filter/softener. You can buy EVERPURE here in HK but its very expensive. Actually much cheaper to get off eBay in the US and post it here, several vendors have reasonable postage. Worth getting the filter head with a shut off valve incorporated in it, QL3 I think from memory.

Drainage very simple, but would recommend a reasonably wide pipe. My current one is 16mm inside diameter. Previously I had a smaller pipe, if the run from machine to drain is not a constant down slope, then it will back up and flood, had that happen a few times...

Claus, did you make a decision yet? I was curious why you weren't considering the Vibiemme dual boiler? Is it available there? I stumbled on a German site that listed the ECM model as close to price of the Vibiemme - but that is halfway across the world from you!

Hi Ed,

No, I haven't made a decision just yet - although I'm leaning towards the Expobar.

I would love a Vibiemme dual boiler but there is a small matter of price. Vibiemme nearest Asian agent is in Singapore and I was considering picking one up on my next trip down there. But the "regular" Domobar Super is already more than USD2,100 so I can't imagine what the dual boiler version would be.

I have been offered the ECM at a very reasonable price at just under US$1,500 plus shipping so it's still tempting despite being far away. But the more I think of it, a plumbed in rotation machine sounds great.

Claus

OK - now the choice was just made harder by that fact that Quickmill finally got back to me.

They can offer me the Andreja Premium for USD1,360 (including shipping) or a slightly used one ("...made 50 cups of coffee during the last exhibition..") for USD1,070. Haven't heard what they want for a rotary Vetrano yet.

Gotta say that the slightly used option is tempting. Pretty cheap and I could get it right away (as opposed to waiting about 4 weeks).

Quickmill seems to have a very good reputation. Any Andreja owners out there who have had problems?

Cheers