Here's a spreadsheet with some HXs and Double Boilers, in case you'd like to see them in a comparison matrix:

Features comparison spreadsheet: Prosumer HX and Double Boilers

Note:

The listings are "biased" towards one dealer, 1st-line. They're the one closest to me and I had planned on an appointment to view a couple that's in this sheet (Strega, VBM DD).

If a product line has various options for a given "model," only the cheapest option is listed. I say "model" in quotes because I didn't list the Giotto E, Vivaldi, Expobar IV-R, etc. instead in their place there's the Cellini E, Mini Vivaldi, Expobar IV. Basically, if the baseline features are relatively similar, the more expensive version is omitted.

No SBDUs. Also omitted are 20A or commercial machines, e.g. Cimbali Junior, Elektra T1, various lever machines. Feel free to edit the spreadsheet to match your needs.

The listed features are by no means exhaustive, this is just intended to give provide a ballpark comparison. I originally listed type of pressurestats, solenoids, etc. but eventually removed them. Again, feel free to add to suit your needs.

Enjoy!

The La Cimbali M21 Junior is 15A, not 20A, and is well suited to home use if you can plumb in.

If you're considering a Junior or any other top of the line HX, I strongly urge you to investigate the "Casa" variation which has 4 second pre-infusion, a home-use friendly steam tip and a dual manometer (set up goes quicker. The Casa is made for and sold only by Chris Coffee Service.

Do yourself a favor and put the Casa on your short list. Fantastic machine. Frikkin' fantastic.

BDL

The La Cimbali M21 Junior is 15A, not 20A, and is well suited to home use if you can plumb in.

You're right, my apologies.

Spreadsheet updated with theLa Cimbali Junior DT1. I definitely think it's the best looking of all the volumetric dosing machines and, without question, build quality is outstanding. Thanks for the correction!

boar_d_laze wrote:The La Cimbali M21 Junior is 15A, not 20A, and is well suited to home use if you can plumb in.

If you're considering a Junior or any other top of the line HX, I strongly urge you to investigate the "Casa" variation which has 4 second pre-infusion, a home-use friendly steam tip and a dual manometer (set up goes quicker. The Casa is made for and sold only by Chris Coffee Service.

Do yourself a favor and put the Casa on your short list. Fantastic machine. Frikkin' fantastic.

BDL

Having a Junior, I agree with Rich. This is one fantastic machine, and the build quality has to be seen to be believed. If you are looking north of $2.5K, you have to put it on your list of machines to check out. If you can't swing that, consider suitable alternatives.

Mine is the "regular" version (2009 model) that I bought slightly used for a nearly $2000 discount. I have to do a few things to compensate for the differences between the regular version and the Casa that CC sells.

1) No dual gauge; however the brew pressure can be confirmed with a ~$60 portafilter with a gauge. Unless you change the inlet pressure, you'll most likely never adjust this again.

2) I get perfect microfoam with the standard tip with as little as 4 ounces of milk in a whopping 12 seconds, but if you can't, the new tip is $20, or you can plug the center hole yourself with a piece of a toothpick to see if the Casa tip will work better for you before you buy.

3) Pre-infusion is another thing missing, so I came up with my own ghetto routine to address this. I start and stop the extraction for one-two seconds, allow the water to saturate the puck for 5 seconds for pre-infusion, then hit the programmed double shot button. Works like a champ! Looking at the spent pucks I see no hint of channeling, only the imprint of the shower screen's retaining bolt, letting me know my 19.5 gram dose in a ridgeless double basket is spot-on.

If you are considering $3K on a machine, put it on your list. If you want to spend a little time to look for one, deals are out there. For $1300 delivered, I got a fantastic machine with a tons of accessories (knockbox, tamper, and a water filtration system). I didn't need any of these, so they had no impact on my decision to purchase.

To refurb this thing to as-new working condition I had to replace the grouphead gasket, boiler gasket (needed only because I pulled the heating element), and a rubber o-ring on the vacuum breaker. I went ahead and pulled the heating element to look inside to asses the condition. Low use and proper filtration was confirmed by the minimal amount of scale and zip ties used to hold on the boiler insulation showing very little discoloration. Total refurb cost was under $13 and took about 20 minutes of labor. I picked up the parts locally from the Cimbali dealer/repair center, who loved talking to a guy that actually uses this machine in his home. He was floored when I answered his question as to what I paid for the machine.

I now have two machines (Cremina and Junior) that will most likely last for at least the next 20 years.

Great Spreadsheet!

About some of Chris's improvements: Thanks to Merle for saying it for me. The dual manometer and "improved" tip are nice, but neither is much of a game changer. I didn't want to turn my little note into an extended review.

I'm not sure if this counts as disagreement or not, but the addition of line-pressure pre-infusion is a big change and allows preparation to be more casual, and less perfect while actually gaining quality in the cup. I used Merle's work around for years with my old Livia 90, and while it's better than nothing it's not the same thing as soft pre-infusion -- especially with a rotary pump which spools up as quickly as the M21's.

Let me add a little more. Everyone talks about the build quality, the ergonomics, etc., but/how La Cimbali's interior engineering including boiler/HX, brewpath, and group materials and design make such a big difference to quality in the cup goes unsaid.

Maybe analysis isn't as important as results. The Casa is a true "professional" machine and makes espresso at a higher level than any lesser, "prosumer" HX (at least those which I've tried). But no matter how good, it's still an HX with all the thaumaturgic by guess and by gosh temperature tweakery that implies. If the convenience, reassurance, and simplicity of DBPID operation suits your style better, that's the direction you should take.

BDL

Thanks BDL!

Merle, since you mention refurb, there's an older version Junior Casa on eB*y right now for a couple hundred above what you paid And BDL, since you mention the Livia 90, I've added it to the sheet.

I owned, used and loved a Livia 90 for twenty years. In its day it was revolutionary and one of the leaders in the revolution towards "prosumer." I posted a very positive review on the Livia up on Coffee Geek which has influenced a lot of buying decisions over the years; but have revised my opinion downward in terms of other machines which are currently available. The design of the Bezzera/Pasquini HX itself is brilliant, the machine heats up quickly and temps tolerably well. But I don't think that's enough reason to purchase a Livia 90 as opposed to any of the better E-61 HXs, for instance.

When my old one finally reached the point where it didn't make sense to put money into repair/refurb, as good as my experience was, I didn't consider replacing it with another Livia or anything else which didn't provide at least some type of pre-infusion. (FWIW, I used the same on-off pump trick with the Pasquini which Merle uses for his Junior; but even with the Livia's vibratory pump the trick isn't as good as real, line-pressure pre-infusion, or for that matter an E-61 "ramp up.")

BDL

TitoM wrote:Thanks BDL!

Merle, since you mention refurb, there's an older version Junior Casa on eB*y right now for a couple hundred above what you paid And BDL, since you mention the Livia 90, I've added it to the sheet.

Tito,

It's not a Casa as only Chris Coffee sells that version. I've seen an older Pasquini-badged Junior on there for MANY months. Although it looks nice and is refurbed, the price is still a bit high due to it being the vibe pump version. I'll bet you can get it for $1300 if you emailed the owner and made him/her an offer. Great machine for that price.

Thanks for the suggestion, Merle. If I were more experienced, I'd be tempted to make that offer as I am indeed considering adding an HX. But then that doesn't come with the support you'd get from a top tier vendor like Chris. If I could stretch my budget, the Junior Casa would definitely be in my shortlist.

Correction to the Duetto, it is not 20A, as most people use it in its 15A mode.

It should say "15A/20A selectable via PID", or something similar.