Decided to start a new thread after having narrowed down my decision to these two machines.

As I read it, here's what separates the two:

1. BII has much better temperature control...one degree celsius vs. five degrees. Huge advantage to Brewtus.

2. Steaming power is much stronger in the S1. But in a home environment, no one will ever notice. Advantage: Very slight to S1.

3. BII costs $200 less. But due to rotary pump on S1, it gets a slight advantage here.

4. S1 can be plumbed in and has a rotary pump for quietness. Huge advantage to S1.

5. BII has the E61 brew group. In the review of S1 done here, it was soundly beaten in the category of espresso quality by E61 machines. Another huge advantage for Brewtus.

6. BII can be placed on a timer with no problems. Another huge advantage for Brewtus.

7. BII has a 58mm portafilter vs. 53mm for S1. In the review of S1 done here, it was soundly beaten in the category of espresso quality by machines using 58mm portafilters. Another huge advantage for Brewtus.


Perhaps I am missing a few key elements here, and maybe I have a few of these wrong. But, all things considered, Brewtus seems to be the most bang for the buck, even if plumbing a machine in ends up being an option for me. Is the rotary pump and the plumbing worth that much more than an easier, more consistent, less expensive avenue to better espresso?

I also don't see Brewtus owners upset about problems with their machines, so durability doesn't seem to be an issue, although a lot of folks here seem to say the Brewtus isn't well-built. Both machines seem to elicit strong, positive opinions in their owners. And the empirical evidence seems to favor the Brewtus...but if the La Spaz had an E61 brewgroup and 58mm portafilter, I would go with it without hesitation. Or, if the Brewtus could be plumbed-in, I'd be all over it. What say you all?

emperorma wrote:Decided to start a new thread after having narrowed down my decision to these two machines.

As I read it, here's what separates the two:

1. BII has much better temperature control...one degree celsius vs. five degrees. Huge advantage to Brewtus.

I'm looking at these two machines too...
The S1 can also be controlled by one degree C increments.

The extra steaming power will *definitely* be noticed even for one drink a day. The action you get in the pitcher from having stronger steam can make huge difference in the taste and texture of the milk. If you'll be making lots of milk drinks this could be a big factor.

Having a plumbed in rotary pump has made a big difference for me. My (HX) machine is actually run from a flojet with 5-gallon water bottles, so I replace a bottle and empty my drainwater about once a week now (instead of filling and emptying every day).

I do not have enough direct experience to compare portafilter differences other than to say that the S1's 53mm version is deeper and most users report being able to put slightly more coffee in the basket than in standard-sized 58mm baskets.

From what I have seen, both machines have very good service records with very few problems reported.

The 58mm has absolutely zero advantage over a 53mm portafilter. The functional difference is that the 53mm double basket is about the same depth as a 58mm triple basket. The additional depth of the coffee in the insert basket is what makes for far better resistance to channeling. With a 58mm triple basket, you're using an additional 5-9 grams of coffee to get the same channeling resistance as you'd get using La Spaz's 53mm double basket.
Also, the Bll steaming performance isn't anywhere near as good as the S1. The S1 is 90% of a big commercial's performance whereas the Bll is more like 40% if that. If you find yourself making 1 or more large latte drinks at a time, the S1 leaves the Bll in the dust.
The S1's temp control is adjustable in 1 degree C increments, and it's accurate to ± 1 degree C from that setting. The S1 is an exceptional machine, especially for milk drinks. If you're more the straight shot of espresso kind, then the Bll would do you fine.

Thanks for the help. One other question.: what do high-end HX automatic prosumer machines such as the Salvatore, Wega Lyra and La Valentina do for temperature control? Do you have to temperature surf using a combination of the single-shot and double-shot buttons?

emperoma, I just went through the same decision, Brewtus II vs. S1. I ended up getting the S1 and have no regrets. I'll echo what others have said about temp control, and the 53mm basket. The S1 seems to have excellent temperature control and stability... while E61's need a cooling shot, the S1 needs a warming shot. I do not see E61 groups having an advantage. The 53mm basket has improved my shots tremendously and I rarely get any channeling. The one thing that I'm totally in love with is having a very quiet, plumbed machine. My old Livia was so loud and having to fill it every few days was a pain. Now I would never dream of going back to a pourover or vibe pump. In my book the extra $200 was totally justified.

Woofy wrote:The 58mm has absolutely zero advantage over a 53mm portafilter. The functional difference is that the 53mm double basket is about the same depth as a 58mm triple basket. The additional depth of the coffee in the insert basket is what makes for far better resistance to channeling.

I'm not convinced by either statement. One advantage to a 58mm PF connected to an e61 grouphead is the thousands of hours of experimentation done to figure out how to optimize extraction using it. The S1 has no preinfusion, it uses 2 sequenced diffusion screens (to compensate?), and it has a smaller dispersion screen that also has a screw in the middle of it. It's pretty easy to imagine that water coming from that configuration onto a deeper puck would take longer to infuse the upper central portion of the puck, which could lead to channeling, or at least uneven extraction. In any event, there is no reason to suppose that the techniques that are so familiar to us for the e61 58mm design are the best for the S1's design. This could suggest that there might be a longer learning curve and that a few habits might have to be unlearned (this is completely speculation on my part). Also, I can get decent extractions from my double basket, but I have a heck of a time using a triple basket, due to channeling issues. JonR has a great article that outlines a technique for getting a good triple basket extraction. That technique is different from the double basket, and the primary difference to me is in developing a method to avoid channeling. In other words, I think there is no reason to suppose that triple baskets are more resistant to channeling (possibly even the opposite might be true).



Some practical similarities/differences between the two machines (that have not already been mentioned):

1) both have their own forums where owners clearly show their appreciation of the machines. This important similarity suggests to me that both machines are excellent, and that a person considering either would probably be happy no matter which direction they took.

2) The S1 and Brewtus both preferentially heat the steam boiler in 15 amp mode. Only the S1 can also be used in 20 amp mode to heat both boilers simultaneously.

3) The S1's brew boiler is 450ml. The Brewtus has a 1.7l brew boiler. For reference, the Silvia has a 355ml boiler.

4) The S1 is a bit taller, a bit shallower, and much wider than the Brewtus.

5) the groupheads are quite different. If you are considering the S1, get to know the grouphead more intimately than merely by its PF diameter. The S1 user forum has several discussions about using and cleaning it, as does Dan's article.

6) Temperature programmability is very straightforward on the Brewtus (no cribsheet required). The S1 electronic controls appear to be less simple, but I have never used it.

Spend some time on both user sites to get a sense of what kinds of issues are discussed. I found this useful in my decision process.

The only situation that I could see one machine being clearly superior to the other is if it is intended to be used for catering or part-time professional use, in which case the S1's 20 amp mode makes it much more suitable for keeping up to heavy traffic.

Mark

Woofy wrote:The 58mm has absolutely zero advantage over a 53mm portafilter.

A disadvantage of the 53mm PF 'could' be can't use Thermofilter to test and compare. Wait, that could be considered a weakness of the Thermofilter not the S1. Although personally I prefer a machine to have a more standard 58mm PF for reasons of exchange and comparability in baskets, PFs etc.

The S1 does have preinfusion, what La Spaz calls "natural infusion." To quote elaizapsal on the S1 forum, "Because of the cold water system that La Spaziale utilizes they use a smaller nozzle or gigleur reducing the flow of water to the group, which causes a natural pre-infusion. It also has 2 showers with holes that do not align that allows an extra infusion by slowing down the flow of water before it has contact with the coffee in the filter handle."

I think each machine has a learning curve regardless of PF size. It took me months to learn the major idiosyncrasies of my Livia, but I've ramped up on the S1 much faster (perhaps this is because of experience, but I think a lot of it has to do with the machine). I find that the 53mm PF is much more forgiving than the 58mm PF as far as channeling is concerned. While channeling on a 53mm PF may begin just as quickly/readily as a 58mm PF, the added depth of the PF reduces the chance that the channel will continue through the puck and result in a "gusher". Dosing the S1 PF is definitely different than the 58mm PF... just like a triple shot basket is different than a double shot.

You simply can't go wrong with either the Brewtus or S1. They're both great machines. Each has its own personality which you must learn to get the best of it.

It will be done...I'll be ordering a La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi from Chris' Coffee Co. on March 1. Thanks to all who gave input...it really helped to solidify my decision. Along with the La Cimbali Jr. grinder I've recently purchased, the S1 should serve me well for many years...and help me avoid "upgrade-itis."

Perhaps it's just the novice coming out in me, but I really feel as if I've spent my money wisely and gotten tremendous value and top-of-the-line quality with both machines. Seems like a great "starter" outfit and, I must say, I'm very excited to get started!

- Emperor Marcus Aurelius

emperorma wrote:1. BII has much better temperature control...one degree celsius vs. five degrees. Huge advantage to Brewtus.

Perhaps "big" rather than "huge".

emperorma wrote:4. S1 can be plumbed in and has a rotary pump for quietness. Huge advantage to S1.

Definitely huge - but do keep in mind the additional cost of water treatment like the Everpure system.

emperorma wrote:5. BII has the E61 brew group. In the review of S1 done here, it was soundly beaten in the category of espresso quality by E61 machines. Another huge advantage for Brewtus.

Umm... not only would I argue that simply possessing an E61 style group is not a "huge" advantage, I would argue that it is not, in fact, an inherent advantage in and of itself - period.
In addition, the E61 group (IMHO) is optimal for use on HX machines but arguably is not ideal for dual boiler machines.

emperorma wrote:7. BII has a 58mm portafilter vs. 53mm for S1. In the review of S1 done here, it was soundly beaten in the category of espresso quality by machines using 58mm portafilters. Another huge advantage for Brewtus.

There is a lot of "noise" about the supposed advantage of the 58mm portafilter. For the most part this is based on the Illy research. Of course, not only is this research dated but is both coffee and machine dependent in many ways. As far as I know, there really has been no true scientific study to show that any diameter of portafilter is inherently superior on all machines and with all coffees.

Dogshot wrote:3) The S1's brew boiler is 450ml. The Brewtus has a 1.7l brew boiler. For reference, the Silvia has a 355ml boiler.

It would only be fair to also mention that the S1 has a 2.5 liter steam boiler and the BII has 1.7 liters. The S1 is a heck of a steamer...

JonR10 wrote:It would only be fair to also mention that the S1 has a 2.5 liter steam boiler and the BII has 1.7 liters. The S1 is a heck of a steamer...

In defence of my attempt at objectivity, I was mentioning differences that had not already been pointed out. I thought the steaming issues had already been nicely covered (plus, those are both large boilers by most home-machine standards).

However, another difference that I forgot to add is that

7) The Brewtus II has a built-in brew pressure gauge.


Mark

Dogshot wrote:I thought the steaming issues had already been nicely covered (plus, those are both large boilers by most home-machine standards).

My apologies - I missed that (I am often lazy about reading whole posts). Just the same, although steam power was mentioned I didn't think the boiler sizes had been compared so it may have been worthwhile to mention (after all, size *does* matter for steam).

Dogshot wrote:7) The Brewtus II has a built-in brew pressure gauge.

A very worthwhile thing IMO. I loved having one on my last machine and I thought I would sorely miss it with the new machine. But after having lived with a brew pressure gauge for so long, I can pretty much tell what pressure I'm extracting at by the look of the flow.

Dogshot wrote:...The S1 has no preinfusion, it uses 2 sequenced diffusion screens (to compensate?), and it has a smaller dispersion screen that also has a screw in the middle of it. It's pretty easy to imagine that water coming from that configuration onto a deeper puck would take longer to infuse the upper central portion of the puck, which could lead to channeling, or at least uneven extraction.

I respectfully disagree. The S1 setup is quite similar to the Isomac RELAX group when used with a triple basket and that combination was very good to me indeed. The screw in the middle of the group has no detectable adverse effect on water flow pattern and using multiple dispersion plates/screens promotes a very smooth saturation.

Dogshot wrote:...a technique for getting a good triple basket extraction. That technique is different from the double basket, and the primary difference to me is in developing a method to avoid channeling.

Interesting interpretation. I had thought the focus of my article was dose, distribution and tamp. We always want to avoid channeling, and those aspects of technique apply to all baskets (especially creating a homogeneous and firm puck, avoiding loss of side seal, and maintaining integrity of the puck surface).

About having a deeper basket: It seems there are two camps regarding preference in this area. (I claim no preference myself.) For a while I was pulling triples almost exclusively but lately I have been more "into" doubles. To me the differences are slight as far as technique goes. In both cases it's ALL about consistent distribution, grind and tamp.

Some coffees seem to extract best for me underdosed in a triple basket and others seem to extract best for me normal-dosed (?) in a double basket. Since I got the E61 clone group I no longer updose any basket (if the puck crashes into the screen it ruins my shot, YMMV).

Please note that I have never used an S1 (I've only seen one before) so most of my comments are from drawn conclusions based on specifications, others' accounts, internet research, and my *somewhat* related experiences using deep baskets.

Jon, thanks for the added commentary about your excellent article.

JonR10 wrote:I respectfully disagree. The S1 setup is quite similar to the Isomac RELAX group when used with a triple basket and that combination was very good to me indeed. The screw in the middle of the group has no detectable adverse effect on water flow pattern and using multiple dispersion plates/screens promotes a very smooth saturation.

The main point that I was trying to make is that the S1's grouphead is sufficiently different from the 58mm e61 that there is no reason to assume that tried and true techniques on the 58mm e61 should generalize to the S1's. It was in response to a post that states that the 58mm e61 has no advantage over the 53mm grouphead. The 58mm e61 design has 1 clear advantage, and that is the amount of 'how to' information associated with it. To what degree is any of that info generalizable to something like the S1 grouphead? Your Relax and the S1 do not share the same configuration. Keep the centre screw the same, the basket depth the same, and vary the screen size - at what point does this become non-comparable? Does the centre screw play a more prominent role in a deeper basket and smaller diameter screen? I dunno. But these were things I thought about when going through my purchase decision.

Mark

Dogshot wrote:The 58mm e61 design has 1 clear advantage, and that is the amount of 'how to' information associated with it.

Very good point.

It would be for me hard to comment on any possible differences required in technique due to the basket geometry without first trying to use the machine myself...

Are there anyone out there which have tried them both? I have a Silvia at the moment but planning for a upgrade this autumn.

I also have a woman that enjoy espresso, but she is not so interested as me and that means that she want a easy way to make espresso. And as I can see the S1 would be a better choice and also alot more quiet. The only thing that I do not like is the 8.0 score on espressomaking. Can a 8.0 give me good espresso?

Any suggestion are appreciated !


Best regards
Alf Hansen
Norway

affas wrote:Are there anyone out there which have tried them both? I have a Silvia at the moment but planning for a upgrade this autumn.

I also have a woman that enjoy espresso, but she is not so interested as me and that means that she want a easy way to make espresso. And as I can see the S1 would be a better choice and also alot more quiet. The only thing that I do not like is the 8.0 score on espressomaking. Can a 8.0 give me good espresso?

Any suggestion are appreciated !


Best regards
Alf Hansen
Norway

I surfed a Silvia over two years before PID and swore I'd never surf again. Yet have been very happy with a rotary direct plumbed leverette Bricoletta HX these past 8 months. While I use flush-n-go for ~1f + or - target shot temps, not WAF friendly. However I've created a cheat sheet that doesn't rely on listening for or counting from flash she readily uses no problem. (Only used if I'm not home to make a cup for her that is. )

I thought I wanted a dual boiler so wouldn't have to surf but very limited options. I didn't like the idea of large amounts of water sitting getting stale in Brewtus's brew boiler or it's vibe pump. Didn't personally like the looks of the S1 or it's size for our counter space or it's less than intuitive method of changing brew temp. And the anticipated rotary dual boiler Quick Mill vaporized. Stumbled on a great deal on the Bric' and haven't regretted it. I've found HX surfing very different, simple and much more accurate than Silvia surfing ever was. HX surfing actually out performs a PID Silvia, especially in a series of shots.

One thing about the S1 vs. the Brewtus is the brew boiler sizes and rotary vs. vibe pump. From what I understand a rotary pump can run longer than a vibe pump without overheating so it would be easier to flush the boilers on the S1 as opposed to the Brewtus. I don't know but wouldn't you have to do some fiddling to flush out the Brewtus' boilers?