I know this is "Home" Barista and am extremely grateful for all the knowledge I've gained through reading here. But I'm in need of redoing our espresso beverage program at work and wondered if there were some recommendations you all could lend.

The biggest challenges that we face at the restaurant is training. We currently use ese pods and they are horrible. I told my partners that either we serve better espresso or we stop serving it altogether. So here I am, trying to serve better.

Like I said, training is the biggest hurdle. Do larger HX machines require the HX flush, if so, should we opt for a double boiler? Will the consistency be better from a conical grinder? Will tamping be more consistent from a lever-auto tamper? What other challenges can equipment choices overcome? Or should we be looking at a super-automatic, not my first option just because of the maintenance and nightly cleaning required(had $15,000 WMF machine in the past that we could ever keep dialed in).

Hey Jon,

How many groups and grinders are we trying to fit into your budget? Two of each?

I guess what I'm really asking is three things: "How many shots per day?" "How many shots per hour during the crushes?" And, "How much milk?"

Moxiechef wrote:Like I said, training is the biggest hurdle.

Yep. The biggest deal in a restaurant is making sure the trainer is competent and takes the necessary time to really train. "This is the grinder, and this is a tamper," won't cut it.

Minimum training is at least a few hours, and includes a lot of tasting. It also includes giving the employee enough supervised chances to practice over a couple of days (and more tasting) to make sure s/he's got the entire process down, from drying the basket to cleaning the wand, before being allowed to prep espresso for customers without supervision.

I've never done espresso in a restaurant, much less supervised staff, but I don't know how you'd do insure consistency without every staffer starting her/his shift by pulling and tasting a couple of shots.

Obviously, staff turnover is a killer.

Do larger HX machines require the HX flush

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Some do, some not so much. Some are as consistent as DBs. It depends.

If so, should we opt for a double boiler?

Maybe. Double boiler temp consistency pays off most during irregular use. Better, modern, 2 and 3 group commercials are stable enough that all the barista will probably need is a routine two or three second flush if the idle period hasn't exceeded 10 mintues or so.

Some commercial HXs have separate HXs for each group, temp control for each group (e.g., NS Aurelia T3, Rancilio 10 USB and RE), etc., and are as accurate and stable as DBs.

And to be clear, when you're talking about a two group in your price range and say "opt for a double boiler," you're really talking about a La Marzocco Linea. If you do a small enough volume to get away with a one group (less than 60 shots/hr) you can think about a Synesso or Slayer.

Will the consistency be better from a conical grinder?

Not really.

Will tamping be more consistent from a lever-auto tamper?

The most common flaws in tamping are tamping out of level, and failing to seal the edge. An auto tamper takes care of the first, but not the second. On the other hand, tamping is easy to train.

What other challenges can equipment choices overcome?

Good question. Whatever you buy, make sure you can get it fixed on short notice when it inevitably breaks click breaks click breaks click breaks.

Or should we be looking at a super-automatic, not my first option just because of the maintenance and nightly cleaning required(had $15,000 WMF machine in the past that we could ever keep dialed in).

You answered the question when your rejected pods.

Cleaning is always an issue. Not only nightly, but between shots and steams, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly and so on. The milk wand is always a HUGE issue if wait and bar staff are steaming. As you know, they mean well, but would rather get the order to the customers than service a machine -- which screws the next waiter and customer.

And don't forget, grinders need regular cleaning as well.

Rich

boar_d_laze wrote:Cleaning is always an issue. Not only nightly, but between shots and steams. The milk wand is always a HUGE issue if wait and bar staff are steaming.

This is a critical issue for me as a consumer. For example, we were at a high end resort a few weeks ago with a beautiful 2 group NS in an Illy-branded cafe in the lobby. The first thing I noticed was the gross milk residue on the steam wand. Because of this alone, I did not have one shot there the entire week. I also noticed that the PFs and baskets were not cleaned at all during the day beyond a wipe with the same dirty rag between shots.

Attention to detail at every step from bean selection through serving will produce good-to-excellent shots and drinks from almost any standard commercial-quality equipment. But even the best mechanicals are limited by the ability and consistency of their users. I've been disappointed too many times by expecting great espresso simply because I saw great equipment on the counter. Our long-time favorite local restaurant (and one of our favorites anywhere) has a very nice Rancilio and a Mazzer. They backflush every day, use good fresh beans, and have the machine checked and maintained regularly because the owner cares. But their espresso is mediocre because every waitperson makes it and they simply don't know enough to do it well and consistently. I also have to assume that they don't taste their own shots or don't like coffee.

If you can't establish and maintain excellence in your staff's approach to espresso & e-based drinks, you might want to reconsider a traditional machine and look at a Nespresso Aguila instead. Just keep it clean and use Arpeggio (a nice middle-of-the-road blend that seems to please most espresso drinkers). Even their Decaffeinato Intenso is decent. You won't get any godshots from Nespresso, but it's better than most of the restaurant espresso I've had regardless of the machinery used. Unless you're planning enough training and practice to make milk art as well, the Nespresso "frothers" in their better machines also make OK latte foam.

You'll never have well trained staff in a restaurant setting, just not possible. My advice look at LaMarzocco Swift grinder, does a very good consistent job of automatically grinding dose AND tamping. Made for just this type scenario. Pretty sure Peets still uses them.

Commercial HX machines are designed to go shot after shot without surfing. Generally speaking from idle pull a couple ounce flush to stabilize brew path while grinding good to go. Oh, you definitely want a volumetric espresso machine!

I'm surprised I haven't heard more about LM's Swift grinder. It seems like a great solution for a lot of cafes, and especially restaurants. Has anyone compared it against a Mythos? In terms of consistency of grind and dose?

The benefit of going from a pod machine to 'professional' machine and grinder isn't really in the quality of equipment, it's that it lets you use good coffee. The problem with good coffee is that it has to be ground fresh, and so in practice that means that whoever is pulling the shots is also in charge of dose and grind - which is where all the training comes in (only basic training is needed to not screw up a tamp, although getting milk foaming right takes more practice).

But if you have a grinder which is consistent in its grind (even between slow and busy periods, which is the downfall of many older grinders) and it's dose as well, then you really just need someone who can dial in the machine everyday, and trouble shoot problems. Then the people pulling the shots 'just' needs to be able to work everything, foam milk, and spot a bad shot. Which is a much more achievable goal than "dial in a new coffee by taste."

TrlstanC wrote:I'm surprised I haven't heard more about LM's Swift grinder. It seems like a great solution for a lot of cafes, and especially restaurants.

One reason not often mentioned or used probably because they taint cheap, ~$4800. They aren't for the budget minded but rather quality focused where consistent training is not possible. However it is functionally essentially 2 grinders in one so price not really that bad.

I suspect you're talking pretty low volume so a single group espresso machine may be all that's needed. An HX like Junior Casa DT1 by La Cimbali would be a rock solid work horse that properly cared for will last decades. Plus wouldn't require special electrical requirements, runs on 15A 110V circuit. And only ~$3k. Paired with LM Swift not much over half your budget.

If making more than 10 to 15 beverages per hour expected I'd move up to 220v 2 group machine like maybe La Cimbali M24 Select Compact 2 ~$5400.

Biggest challenge will likely be teaching steaming milk decently. There are some commercial machines with auto-frothers but I have zero experience with any of them. Suggest giving Chris Coffee a call and discuss your specific needs.

Compass Coffee wrote:One reason not often mentioned or used probably because they taint cheap, ~$4800. They aren't for the budget minded but rather quality focused where consistent training is not possible. However it is functionally essentially 2 grinders in one so price not really that bad.

For the OP, I can't imagine not going with a Swift if espresso is a must. As you mention, 2 grinders in one to have 2 different coffees, or regular and decaf. The price is cheap compared to the training needed to ensure staff know what they are doing in the area of grind/tamp/dose. But I would still think someone is needed to adjust the grinder and dial in a shot at the beginning of the day? If only they offered a conical version...

One thing to keep in mind about the Swift is that some report you can only use LM portafilters and baskets with it. Others may fit (with some adjustments) but seem to not be supported by LM. I guess not too surprising and not a huge deal-breaker, but something to keep in mind or to ask about when purchasing.

But I do think that between the above mentioned dialing in, milk steaming training, and other machine maintenance...I can really understand why most restaurants don't offer espresso based drinks. Or if they do, why they almost are never that great (at least if we are talking non-high end restaurants). Even the country club near me makes terrible coffee and tea.

EspressoForge wrote:I can't imagine not going with a Swift if espresso is a must.

I've only used the Swift grinder a few times, but it's clearly designed with a very busy cafe in mind. The delivery chamber retains a lot of coffee as evidenced when dialing in the grind setting (I basically had to discard a full basket or more). That's not a big deal for a cafe that's banging out shot-after-shot. But for a restaurant serving espresso, I would be concerned that (a) restaurant personnel would go through a lot of coffee dialing in, and (b) time between uses of the Swift could be long enough that the retained coffee would stale, throwing off shot times.

Back to the OP...

Moxiechef wrote:I told my partners that either we serve better espresso or we stop serving it altogether.

Or go for tableside service of French press, which is easy and invites pleasant interaction between diners discussing the novelty of being served fresh coffee. If you really want to serve quality espresso, you'll need someone well trained on how to use the equipment. I've never experienced "idiot proof" espresso preparation. It's not rocket science, but it's not push button easy either.

On a loosely related note, I've catered "cars & coffee" events at a local dealership. The typical attendance is 40-80 people over two hours. I usually go through 3 pounds of coffee and 2-3 gallons of milk. At the peak of the rush, I had a backlog of 6 drinks with a one-group like the La Marzocco GS/3. My best drink-to-drink service time is around 1 minute, so the guy at the end of the line had to wait 5+ minutes. The drinks are free so nobody complains, but in a real cafe, customers would get pretty antsy in about half the time. Back to your situation, if you decide to stick with espresso, a commercial single group would surely be all that's required, unless of course you're going for the look of a fancy cafe, in which case a two group might be worth it for the extra eye candy.

EspressoForge wrote:If only they offered a conical version...

They do. The current version has 63mm ceramic conical burrs. It is called the Vulcano Swift.

http://www.lamarzoccousa.com/portfolio/ ... o-vulcano/

- Mike