Hi,

I'm new to the forum and I'm looking for some advice on a new espresso machine. I'm replacing a Delonghi superautomatic.

I'm looking at HX machines and 2 DBs that's are in my price range. I'm not sure which way to go. Here's the lineup...

Vibiemme Domobar Super HX w/Rotary pump $1800
Vibiemme Domobar Super HX (vibratory) $1600
Quick Mill Anita (HX) $1600
Rocket Cellini V3 (HX) $1650
Quick Mill QM67 (DB) $2000
Breville BES920XL (DB) $1300

I'm leaning towards the mazzer mini for a grinder.

So, my bottom line questions:

HX vs. DB - some concern about HX cooling flush and getting the group temp correct. Should I be concerned?

The HX design seems to be easier to repair and has less to go wrong than the DB design. Thoughts?

Is a rotary pump worth a $200 premium (see Vibiemme Domobar Super HX above).

Why should I NOT get the Breville? It just seems like so much for the $ and it's getting great reviews ( even compared to $6000 machines).

Thank you in advance for your advice.

How often do you plan to use it per day?

The biggest benefit of going rotary is being able to plumb. A smaller benefit is that it sounds better when it is being operated ( IMO ).

I would personally pick the Cellini evoluzione v2 due to the price, rotary pump and ease of servicing in the future.

If I were in the market for a new machine I would go DB, simply because I like the ability to set the temperature. However, an HX will make great espresso, and that is what I have now.

I like the Breville, but you may be giving up reliability. They have been backing the machine well though.

I would suggest something other than a Mini for the grinder. Either a Baratza Vario, a used Mazzer SJ, or a Pharos would be better overall.

Johnny b wrote:I'm leaning towards the mazzer mini for a grinder.

The Baratza Vario is considerably more bang for the buck; but the Mini is better built.

HX vs. DB - some concern about HX cooling flush and getting the group temp correct. Should I be concerned?

Yes and no. You should be "concerned" about learning to temp either kind of machine. Both need to be temped for each and every coffee as part of the dialing-in process. Temping is entirely palate driven. Once you've learned what the tastes mean, an HX is quicker and more convenient to temp than a DB. Once you have temp dialed-in a DB is very slightly more convenient for successive shots. In other words, speaking very generally, it's a push. Be aware though, some machines are quicker and easier to temp than others.

The HX design seems to be easier to repair and has less to go wrong than the DB design. Thoughts?

True. Mostly because there's more stuff in a DB box.

Is a rotary pump worth a $200 premium (see Vibiemme Domobar Super HX above).

Depends. If there's any chance you're going to plumb-in, the $200 is a bargain. Also, rotary pumps are quieter. Since everything on your list has pre-infusion and an OPV, most of the other differences aren't important.

Why should I NOT get the Breville? It just seems like so much for the $ and it's getting great reviews ( even compared to $6000 machines).

Good question. The BDB downsides are that it's plasticky and not built to heirloom standards; and that it's got a lot of electronic and mechanical complication. However, these objections are more theoretical than actual. After a short teething period, the previous BDB (900XL) had excellent reliability; and Breville factory support was beyond exemplary.

Comparing the BDB to a $6000 machine is somewhat misleading. A hugely expensive, top of the line, uber-machine won't make a huge difference in the cup compared to anything competent. They're more capable, have better production capacity, are easier and more comfortable to use, promote a higher level of consistency, look better, feel better, etc. Are those things worth their tariff? Up to you.

The question of how much to spend on an espresso machine is as much a question of how you see yourself as of how you make and taste coffee. I have no desire to define you. Beware of those who do.

Performance for money is a consideration for all but a few of us. The BDB and Vario are two of the few, very best, bang for the buck deals in espresso. The other ones are either below or beyond your price range. That said, while a BDB + Vario is a reasonable and not uncommon setup; it's not a great one.

Getting back to the BDB... The way you phrased your question shows a lot of insight. It's so much bang for the buck that you almost have to make a case against it before moving on to consider other prosumer machines.

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER
Considering the machines on your list, I suggest spending quite a bunch more nickles and moving up from the Mini to something in the Super Jolly class; or even better a Titan flat, like a Mazzer Major ($1040) or Ceado E37s (if you want a "doserless," electronic, on-demand grinder; $1,100); or a Titan conical like the Compak K10 PB ($1500). If that means sacrificing on the machine and going, for instance, with a BDB instead of a QM67, you still come out way ahead.

A $1,300 machine with an $1,100 grinder will substantially outperform, in the cup, any machine -- regardless of price -- with a Mini or Vario.

Hope this helps,
Rich

Eddy, It will be lightly used. About 4 espressos per day.

E61 and HX machines have a lot of exposed metal that water flows through. This is yet another source of temperature variability.

Also consider:

"Examples of such cobbling is the use of thermosyphon groups in double boiler machines. There really is no good reason for this." - gscace

Hello John,

First off, welcome! It's a good group and once you land upon your new equipment, you're all but assured some great support moving forward.

Here's my .02...

I would consider the Brewtus 4, in whatever configuration makes the most sense for you. I personally think the rotary pump is worth its weight in gold. I got my Brewtus IV-R for around 1,750 after a little negotiation, and for the money, I think it's tough to beat. Compared to the QM67 for instance, I think it beats the pants off its capabilities (can't steam and brew simultaneously on the QM67) and it costs less. Another option to consider. That said, given your list, I think you could hardly go wrong. There are a lot of motivators and 'use' type things to consider when making these decisions as well.

Many have said that the Mazzer Mini is not the 'best' choice and I'd agree. I would consider the SJ or the Mazzer Mini-E (which is the same size burr set as the SJ). The SJ burr set showed very well against some very well liked and far more expensive grinders in the Titan showdown. The Vario has been a very well reviewed grinder as well, and for the money, likely of the best values on the market.

I personally like 'sturdy' items, and I found the Breville and the Vario not appealing from that standpoint.

Have fun!

Mark

jonr wrote:"Examples of such cobbling is the use of thermosyphon groups in double boiler machines. There really is no good reason for this." - gscace

Since every DB I can think of on the market has some sort of group temp stabilization -- whether thermosyphon (including van der Westen machines), electronic heating (CC1, BDB, etc.); saturation (La Marzocco), or passive/massive/direct-connect -- it appears that Greg, as brilliant as he is, is in the minority of espresso machine designers and makers.

Temp stabilization aside, there are a lot of practical reasons for manufacturers to hang an E-61 off the front of a prosumer DB. They're inexpensive, massive, easily sourced, reliable, easily repaired, popular with consumers, have built-in pre-infusion, etc.

One of the dirty little secrets of DB machines is that -- while HX's need flushes to cool the brew water temp, and re-stabilize the group -- most work better with some sort of flush immediately before the pull to warm the group.

Rich

I can't speak to the espresso machine, as I haven't used a DB machine yet. My Oscar HX makes me happy, so I'm content for now. (Well, I'm considering a Bezzera Strega, but I'm still content.)

Regarding your grinder I run a Baratza Vario for my daily use of espresso. I know my settings for different beans and different machines and different doses. I can switch between those different grind settings and get back to where I left off when switching around as long as I run the machine when making adjustments of any kind and always make the final grinder adjustments from fine to coarse instead of coarse to fine. (1 notch finer = 2-3 moves finer and then 1-2 moves coarser while the grinder runs) It's a very good little grinder.

BUT! This grinder is what I would consider the modern equivalent of the old Rocky grinder. It's the bare minimum grinder for home espresso. If you are getting a good machine you should start with a better grinder, or at least plan on upgrading to a better grinder as soon as your funds allow. You'll still have great espresso at home, but you can do much better than a B. Vario for flavor.

I've built a test grinder from some 68mm Compak K10 used burrs and some PVC drain pipe. Run it with a cordless drill and a strap handle. It's basically a kludged version of an OE Pharos.
The quality of this grind has put the Vario to shame. It's not even a comparison in the cup, at least I think so. Clarity, sweetness, length of pull before blonding, range of dial in acceptance, and many other parameters seem to be effected positively by a better grinder.

You can get this class of grinder starting at $245 for the Pharos, $995 for HG-One, and motorized K10 PB is $1500(?). Of course a used Super Jolly with new burrs or a new grinder is also a great choice. If you long for perfection in the cup you'll need a better grinder than the Vario.

Now back to the espresso machine debate.

boar_d_laze wrote:Since every DB I can think of on the market has some sort of group temp stabilization -- whether thermosyphon (including van der Westen machines),Rich

Where's the thermosyphon on Kees' DBs?