Hello all.

My Baratza Virtuoso 'hit a rock' which sent me on the quest for a great replacement. I thought it was a good grinder, but not amazing. It did nothing badly, but it just didn't give me that 'wow' feeling when I used it. (Not sure if this says more about me than about the Virtuoso). Colin at Baratza assures me that it can be fixed for very little $$, but........ I now have an excuse to buy something even better. Ther's not much available for me to try in brick and mortar stores, so it is down to buy and try....

So far I am going to return a Technivorm grinder (thought it might really pair well with my tv brewer, but the grinder is a pita to use, imho). A cheapo Capresso was DOA, and the infinity premium grinder is not bad. But.... I also bought a Baratza Vario a few days ago and just installed the stainless steel burrs last night. The ss burrs generate even more static than the ceramics, and the Vario generates more than the Virtuoso did (the Capresso Infinity seems to produce the least)

I brew a 5-cup in my Technivorm weekday mornings and bigger pots on weekends (my morning drink). Some afternoons or evenings I may make a press pot, Aeropress, Vietnamese or Clever brewer or Hario cloth cup for myself (so, pretty much every non-espresso type except Turkish). A large variety, but not a large quantity (it's just me). Also, I roast my own coffee, typically Indonesian or low-acid less bright South/central American coffees to Full City(+) on my Gene Cafe roaster.


So, finally the questions.

1. Does it make any sense to buy a big Bunn or something like an EK43?
2. Why might the Vario make more static than the Virtuoso did?
3. What grinder would you recommend to me- price is an object,but I'll spend to get that 'wow' and something that will work for me for a long time.


Thanks for reading this.

What John said, plus...

• Bunnzilla: I started with a new Bunn G1, rather than buying used. It cost me about $400 more for the project but saved a lot of time looking for a used grinder in good shape, didn't involve buying anyone's problems, and got me the G1 size I wanted. Worth the extra money? To me.
  - Current price for the Ditting 803/804 burr set, plus whatever it's going to cost you to get the back burr press fit into a washer runs well over $400. I'm not sure how realistic a total project price of $700 is currently. But you never know.
  - Ira might have the record for putting together the cheapest Bunnzilla. Kudos. He's a really nice, funny guy. Not particularly germane, but wotthehell wotthehell, thought I'd mention it.

• EK 43: Excellent bulk grinder but, the thing of it is there are lots of excellent bulk grinder. The EK43 is not worth its money unless you're going to use it for grinding really lightly roasted espresso too. Even then, I think the Anfim Super Caimano Barista is better in the cup; and hear the Mythos Barista is as well. No fan of lightly roasted espresso, me.

• Other Bulk Grinders: Ditting and Mahlkonig have other bulk grinders which are a little less expensive and have similar countertop presence and are every bit as good as the EK43. The Guatemala Lab, for instance, not only kills for brew, but has a couple of cupping-friendly features for roasters. But, when you're talking bulk grinders from Ditting and Mahlkonig you're talking a great deal more money than Bunnzilla with nothing extra in the cup to justify it.
  - Other burr grinder manufacturers, like Curtis, Fetco and Grindmaster, don't seem to have the right burrs to do the same job as the Ditting/Mahlkonig burrs.
  - At some point, extra burr size only makes bulk grinding go faster, and isn't reflected in the cup -- at least not in any way I can detect.

• Baratza Forte BG: Nice little grinder. Like the bulk grinders, convenient for cupping. The right size for an ordinary home kitchen, but you give up some quality in the cup compared to Bunnzilla, and the bulk grinders from Ditting and Mahlkonig. Got room?

• Subtotal: Bunnzilla and the Ditting and Mahlkonig burr grinders seem to be the pinnacle of in the cup performance for everything but Turkish and espresso. Their hallmark as brew grinders is not only spectrum, separation, mouthfeel and clarity, but bringing out a "juicy" quality which neither the Forte nor the "other" brand burr grinders do.

• Bottom Line and FTW: Bunnzilla is as good in the cup as anything I've ever tried, no matter the cost; and a great deal less expensive than anything as good. Strong, ergonomically excellent, unbelievably fast for brew and cupping, great for cupping.

Join the cult,
Rich

Thanks for the replies. How are the Bunn grinders with their stock burrs? How often would they need to be changed- # of lbs. before they wear out? I did a quick calculation and I probably go through 35-40 Lbs per year at home.

I can make room for the right grinder, probably up to the size of the Bunn. I just looked at some dimensions- the EK43 is 30 inches tall!!!!

Is the Forte better than the Vario, in terms of static and in the cup? Size and price make it very appealing. I liked the Virtuoso OK, it was good in the cup, but slow (it replaced a Kitchen-Aid). I want great coffee, but I also want a big smile on my face every time I fire up the grinder, and I want it to "just work", with no hassles

Thanks!

fzman wrote: How are the Bunn grinders with their stock burrs?

Good, better than a Forte BG, but not as good in the cup as with the Ditting burrs.

How often would they need to be changed- # of lbs. before they wear out? I did a quick calculation and I probably go through 35-40 Lbs per year at home.

Their life expectancy is about two tons. If you're the anxious type, cut it half and figure replacing in fifty years. On the other hand, the duty cycle of the Ditting 803/804 burrs is 15,000 lbs. Buy an extra set when you purchase the first, just to be safe.

I can make room for the right grinder, probably up to the size of the Bunn. I just looked at some dimensions- the EK43 is 30 inches tall!!!!

Bunnzilla, built on a Bunn G1 is 23";
Ditting 804 -- same burr set as Bunnzilla -- is 24";
Guatemala Lab -- smaller burr set but very good and with a 1lb hopper capacity, very well to our purposes -- is 25"; while the
Mahlkonig EK43 -- with a short hopper -- stands a petite 27-1/2".

Is the Forte better than the Vario, in terms of static and in the cup?

Don't know. Forte is a great deal faster and better built.

Size and price make it very appealing.

I know. I'm trying to think of someone who's a lot of experience with both. TomC maybe?

I liked the Virtuoso OK, it was good in the cup, but slow (it replaced a Kitchen-Aid). I want great coffee, but I also want a big smile on my face every time I fire up the grinder, and I want it to "just work", with no hassles.

Virtuoso/Smart are good brew grinders, but not in the same league as a Vario or Forte BG, and not in the same universe as Bunnzilla.

Rich

If you're anything like me, go big or go home. If you can afford it, then why not?

I vote for the Mahlkonig EKK43. Note that there are 2 Ks. That would denote the twin model.

Bulk grinders like the bunnzilla are the end game in terms of in the cup. I do disagree that the stock bunn burr is better than the Forté BG (no disagreement that bunnzilla is). I chose the Forté for it performance in the cup, convenience, user friendliness, and size. But if all you're after is the results in the cup and you have the space, bulk grinders are the way to go.

I use an EK and a Forte BG. As far as motorized brew grinders go, I started with a J-100 -> LPG -> Kenia -> Ditting 804 -> Guat Lab -> EK43. In there I also rebuilt a Ditting 902 and 1204, a Curtis GSG(?), and impulsively purchased a big Jericho. And an Encore, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone who can afford or acquire better.

If most of what you're grinding for is a Technivorm, I think the Forte BG is the way to go - solid, convenient, and flexible. If you want to do some larger volume brewing, the Kenia and the Ditting 800s will bring speed and convenience. The EK is only worth your while if you're going to use it for espresso as well. I don't think the 1200 and 1400 Dittings have anything extra to offer a home brewer.

Russel,

Thanks for the reply- and thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. I was out and about earlier today and saw two Bunn grinders in the bagged coffee areas at a chain coffee shop-- they are huge, but they did look to be the 2 or 3 pound models, if I had to guess. While the size is not a deal-breaker, i don't want a grinder that is huge just for the sake of being big, but one that is a pleasure to use and is great in the cup. I bought the Vaio AP and installed the steel burrs 2 days later. I've ground about a pound so far, with the ceramic and steel burrs, in that order. I found the flavor better with the steel burrs (in the technivorm brewer), but they seem to produce way more static than the ceramic burrs.

Since I can return the Vario, the question is --should I return it and just buy a Forte BG? Would that be 'settling'. Beside the Bunnzilla, or used commercial grinders, is there something between the Forte and EK43 price (closer to the Forte side of the ledger), that would be the best price/performance compromise?

Cheers to all.

I have owned three Vario's with ceramic burrs and now the forte bg. There is a night and day difference in usability. The very accurate built in scale is also great for brew grinding. I would not buy a Vario again but would certainly consider a second forte.

Since acquiring the forte I haven't found any interest in completing my Bunnzilla project. The package just isn't as aesthetically pleasing as the forte. Also not having to single dose is a big convenience factor for me now.

As for static I do recall i had some issues with my vario's but none thus far with my forte bg. However, I only had issues sometimes and that's because of different beans. Are you using the same beans?

The Breville smart is also a nice little cheap and convenient alternative to a virtuoso. I have the smart and like it as well.

My comments don't hold as much value as the others though. Im going by usability, price and aesthetics. My palate just isn't as refined. However, I know I am making some darn good brew with my Bunn trifecta mb and other methods such a a clever dripper with my forte bg.