Good evening everyone!

Here I am, still scrimping and saving for my dream machine..., and I'm ALMOST there (just one more month of saving!!). Problem is, with all this time considering my options it's easy to get sidetracked with such a vast array of options. I'm pretty set on the Izzo Alex Duetto iii, and I'm sure that's what I'll actually end up with since it's cheaper than some machines on my list, while still having great abilities and aesthetics... Then again, there are other machines on the market that really distracting me from making her my absolute choice. I am considering saving for a few months longer, skipping the whole upgrade process and getting something along the lines of the coveted la marzocco gs3... Instant gratification or long term satisfaction? I just don't know if I can wait that long though, so I don't think that will likely happen. And that's not really what "m getting to with this post...

...OK, so there's also ANOTHER machine on my list that seriously makes me swoon... The Elektra Sixties T1. It was the one that got me into this mess originally, but after being prompted by more experienced espresso-drinkers to consider something more newbie-friendly (IE, Dual Boilers) I decided to take a different path and ended up with my savings towards the Duetto, which to me, has sort-of similar aesthetics at least.

So my question is, is the T1 so much more challenging than a DB like the Duetto to master? I am SO smitten with its design, but I have to face the fact that since I am not really experienced, I just might not be able to "pull off" a machine of its stature, if you will. I've been reading about HX vs DBs, and it's enough to make me think my fears are true... that it's just not a good choice for me :'(

What do I like about the T1, and why am I so set on it? The aesthetics, the fact that it's a commercial machine, and the price. It's perfect in all of those aspects, and I am really craving a commercial machine (as close to my dream of having a coffee shop as I will ever achieve).

...Also, I know it must be plumbed in... and that's a huge decision factor. My cabinets are only 16.5" tall, so I know it will not fit under them, Garh. What do some of you do to bypass this issue? I could put it on a cart, but it couldn't be against the sink... probably 7 feet away from it more likely. I'm pretty lost how that works.

As for a grinder, I presently own a Baratza Vario, and will also be upgrading that to a Compak K10 along with my machine "upgrade" (from a mypressi, lol).

Thanks guys!

increasingdelight wrote:So my question is, is the T1 so much more challenging than a DB like the Duetto to master?

Short answer: No. Long answer: Buyer's Guide to the Elektra A3 (the T1 is the volumetric dosing version of the A3). From the conclusion:

HB wrote:Plainly stated, dialing in the temperature and extraction was too darn easy. In retrospect, I realize that I carried an unstated assumption into the evaluation: Fast pressurization means poor preinfusion (wrong!). This bias originates in my experience with vibration pump E61-type machines, which pressurize much slower than a rotary pump's blink-of-an-eye 2-3 seconds.

Consistently obtaining the desired temperature is the easiest of any heat exchanger machine I've tried or reviewed. Elektra trumpets the transition from "overheated water is exhausted" to the beginning of the "temperature surf countdown" so loud and clear that recognizing it is trivial. The Espresso Performance section shows one of the first extractions and it was even, striped, and persistent. With the exception a slight tendency to underextract directly beneath the dispersion screw, the quality of the extractions have been dreamy. Heck, even a video of a "bad" extraction that I took for diagnostic purposes was still pretty good! Among heat exchanger machines, Elektra rules the morning after score with an 8.0.

Among heat exchanger espresso machines, Elektra is my favorite. If you don't want to deal with the extra step of an HX flush, get a double boiler espresso machine. But purely in terms of "more challenge", the Elektra's HX flush is somewhere between turning on a light switch and properly folding a shirt.

increasingdelight wrote:My cabinets are only 16.5" tall, so I know it will not fit under them, Garh. What do some of you do to bypass this issue? I could put it on a cart, but it couldn't be against the sink... probably 7 feet away from it more likely. I'm pretty lost how that works.

For many buyers, that would be a deal breaker. A cart with Flojet/water bottle and catch drain would work, but remember the Elektra needs 20 amps. A smaller semi-commercial espresso machine would certainly be more logistically practical. The good news in your dilemma is that you're choosing among excellent choices.

HB wrote:Among heat exchanger espresso machines, Elektra is my favorite. If you don't want to deal with the extra step of an HX flush, get a double boiler espresso machine. But purely in terms of "more challenge", the Elektra's HX flush is somewhere between turning on a light switch and properly folding a shirt.

That's a gem worthy of the bannerhead quote for the forums.

HB wrote:For many buyers, that would be a deal breaker. A cart with Flojet/water bottle and catch drain would work, but remember the Elektra needs 20 amps. A smaller semi-commercial espresso machine would certainly be more logistically practical. The good news in your dilemma is that you're choosing among excellent choices.

I had to restrain myself from suggesting a kitchen remodel.... I wonder if a GS/3 is as tall under a cabinet as the Elektra T1? I now have a commercial lever machine on my counter that I "plumb in" with a portable FloJet pump and water bottle. When it runs low I refill the machine. The machine is so good it's worth it. Back to the remodel, if you eliminate one of those cabinets you'll be able to have something that looks amazing, (not my machine -- I wish).



Seriously, though, Jim Schulman, one of the H-B team members has convincingly written about much better gear being less challenging for beginners. If I'm remembering correctly, it's more consistent and forgiving.

increasingdelight wrote:So my question is, is the T1 so much more challenging than a DB like the Duetto to master?

I'll second Dan's "no" to this. I love my T1 and don't think it is especially hard to use. Friends who don't have an HX and come over seem to agree. Easier temperature control is the advantage of a DB over an HX and it is only one minor factor in making great espresso.

Far harder than mastering the T1 or the Duetto or any other high end machine is mastering espresso in general - finding a good dose, good grind setting, learning to pack the basket, etc. The better machines like these two are more forgiving of mistakes in these areas, so in some sense that makes them great newbie machines.

It is slightly simpler for a beginner to hit the target temperature on a dual boiler than an heat exchanger, but the thing beginners often overlook is that it is far harder to figure out the perfect temperature to aim for with a given coffee than it is to hit the temperature no matter if they are using an HX or a DB.

Said another way, if you don't know what the right temperature is then perfect precision is not much of an advantage. If you are sophisticated to figure out the right temperature then you will certainly be able to understand how to flush to get close to a desired temperature.

Thanks everyone! That definitely has me rethinking my descion. The gears are turning. I might just get the T1 then... we will see in about a month

drgary wrote:I had to restrain myself from suggesting a kitchen remodel.... I wonder if a GS/3 is as tall under a cabinet as the Elektra T1? I now have a commercial lever machine on my counter that I "plumb in" with a portable FloJet pump and water bottle. When it runs low I refill the machine. The machine is so good it's worth it. Back to the remodel, if you eliminate one of those cabinets you'll be able to have something that looks amazing, (not my machine -- I wish).

Oh, I wish. I rent, so that wont be happening anytime soon. Of course I will not let that interrupt my dream of having a beautiful machine taking over some part of my house

I have had espresso created with a T1 and a Mazzer Robur. It was first rate and could be fine tuned. This was the event where that happened. Note the lower height of the GS/3 on the left.

+ 1 to Dan and Hugh. Big deal HX machines like the T1 are extremely easy to temp. IMO, there's also an "in the cup" superiority of the T1 and La Cimbali Casa compared to the Duetto, which makes for a slightly "flatter," less "lively" and less nuanced taste.

Depending on whether you own or rent, live in a multi-unit building or in a house, etc., you may be able to locate your machine in some room other than your kitchen. If there's any practical way to plumb-in the machine, do it. It's more than a convenience. After a good grinder, nothing will improve the quality of your coffee more than the ability to use and lose LOTS of water.

While most folks are forced into it, a giant espresso set up uses up too much kitchen counter real estate for most kitchens. And jamming stuff under cabinets with barely enough clearance ends up as neither attractive nor convenient. As a sort of generic, you could use any table or cabinet large enough to support the equipment, locate it against a wall adjacent to the kitchen, and run the supply and drain hoses through the common wall, and hiding them in the back of the kitchen cabinets once they're in the kitchen.

We located our coffee gear (including a La Cimbali M21 Casa) in a 10' x 8' "breakfast room" between the our kitchen and garage. We run the water to the machine from the garage's washing machine supply, and drain through an exterior wall into a patch of dirt in the side yard.

FWIW, minimum height for a GS/3 is listed at 15.5", and 17" for a T1.

Good luck,
BDL

drgary wrote:
Seriously, though, Jim Schulman, one of the H-B team members has convincingly written about much better gear being less challenging for beginners. If I'm remembering correctly, it's more consistent and forgiving.

Somehow, I missed this bit. Which machines would that be? The Duetto especially has been described as very newbie friendly Oh dear...

Oh... I wanted to share this photo so that maybe I could get some good advice on to where to put the monster. So, in our kitchen is a laundry area. Where the plant stand is, I thought about putting a cart there and somehow plumbing it into the washing machine? Like I said, I'm REALLY new to the concept of pluming in a machine... so I'm just throwing thoughts around.

...On the other side of my kitchen and sink, is a breakfast bar. I'd like to set it on there, and plum it in through the wall to the sink on the otherside. But the breakfast bar is only 14" deep... shoot. Would you guys extend it somehow and just place your machines there? Man...

increasingdelight wrote:Somehow, I missed this bit. Which machines would that be? The Duetto especially has been described as very newbie friendly Oh dear...

Not to worry. He was speaking in general about when you get a very high quality machine like the ones you've already mentioned.

As far as plumbing in goes, when you buy your machine from one of the H-B approved vendors/sponsors,* the vendor will be able to provide you with any additional information and parts you need for installation and plumbing. If you plumb in directly instead of using a FloJet pump inserted in a large water bottle your water may need to go through a water softening system. The vendor can tell you what you need and compared to your machine these aren't expensive. I think they're under $200 and a plumber can set it up for you. The parts and fittings are not complicated and usually include some flexible hose like those used to attach a washing machine.

Regarding placement, it's really where you feel you'll have enough elbow room at either of those locations. If the shelf in your breakfast nook is 14 inches deep and the machine is a bit longer, placing and fastening a board on top should be sufficient as long as it can bear the weight of the machine. A simpler solution may be where you have the plants by the window, but either place should be made to showcase your professional gear.

Don't forget electrical requirements. For the T1 Dan (HB) wrote that you'll need a 20 amp outlet. So you'll probably need to have an electrician come in and upgrade that circuit and include a GFCI for shock protection.

* See the Resources link at the top and look at the Commerce listing of vendors and sponsors to choose the one closest to you.

Buy the T1 cause I guarantee once you've brought the Duetto you'll still be thinking of the Elektra