Hi,
I just cannot make up my mind.
The A3 is tempting to me
The Junior is built to last forever (IMHO)

Any help from whoever been to such a confusion and found a way out?

Thanks!

Ran

doubt you can go wrong with either..

but I'd go for the Elektra..

PS.
I have a project with an OLD Elektra La Delisiosa,
and the frame of the machine is though as nail, the boiler is the thickest I've seen... and with good care I'm pretty sure the Elektra can also last forever..
http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc11 ... mview=grid

the A3 has a 58mm portafilter (more standard, if you care) and is much more attractive IMO. I think they're both extremely well-built, though the Junior is definitely the winner there. Home use? I'd still take the Elektra. I don't expect to be using it for 1000 shots a day or anything else that would tax it seriously enough that the Junior's superior build quality would come into play.

Beyond that, each of these machines has been reviewed well on this site. What further information are you looking to get?

I've been using a junior for 3 years and it's a wonderful machine. If I were to buy a new machine today I would not choose either of the 2 and would look into a double boiler machine. At this point in my espresso play I am more interested in the temperature programming capabilities of a PID'd machine than a tank which pulls a max of 10 shots per day and 15-20 a few times a year. If I were to start again I would budget 40% of my funds towards a grinder for the best possible combination.

I've been to a local dealer today and he opened up a Junior, showing me how neat it looks inside. The direct head-boiler coupling etc'. It really is convincing.
Dealer claimed that all these faema61-styled machines (inc' A3) are lacking this kind of neat, perfect coupling of head to boiler, a fact that leads to less-than-adequate temperature stability.

Looking at an inside view of a new A3 (Elektra site) we can see the simple brass tube that couples boiler to head. But, does it really mean anything?

On the other hand, HB Review of the A3 is much more "in favor" than the Junior review (both by Mr. Kehn). But Mr. Kehn is an Elektra aficionado if I can read between the lines

ranweiss wrote:Mr. Kehn is an Elektra aficionado if I can read between the lines

I like various espresso equipment for different reasons. If there's one espresso machine that has it all, I've not found it. Elektra's strength among HX espresso machines is ease of use. That said, I think that their current pricing makes them an unappealing option (see Elektra A3 & T1 owners... would you buy again at today's price? for discussion).

Both of these machines would be high on my list were I to be shopping for a new machine right now. I own a couple of Cimbali Juniors, one almost 15 years old (vibe pump driven pourover) and the other about 5 years old (current version D1 plumbed in rotary pump driven).

I'd love to have the chance to use an Elektra for a week and to compare it to what I have, but I've never had the chance. In fact, I've never even seen an A3 in the flesh.

I can't really comment on the Elektra other than saying that it has a bunch of enthusiastic owners. I think that Cimbali owners are less enthusiastic in public, which might have more to do with them being somewhat less interesting people more than anything else I don't know what to do with that piece of information so I'd probably ignore it . . . . .

As to the Junior, I think it is a bit dated in design. This is no different than what I have said about this machine several times in the past in these forums. I don't know if this is also true of the Elektra. The Cimbali could use an update, but even so it is bulletproof and if you don't like it out of the box there are a couple of modifications you can do on it which will make it much more user friendly.

I can't compare the quality of construction or durability of the two machines since I have no experience with the Elektra; the Cimbalis have been very solid for me and have needed little repair work, all of which I've been able to do for myself. If you are a fan of updosing, the Cimbali is not really very good for this in the current DT1 iteration, unless you do a delay timer mod, which I have written about here before. I'm not sure that either of these machines are all that good as regards temperature stability without some attention to this issue, which can be addressed several ways. The easiest and cheapest is Dan's "Water Dance" approach to managing heat exchanger machines.

ken

Note: the Cimbali uses a 58mm PF also.

Ken Fox wrote:If you are a fan of updosing, the Cimbali is not really very good for this in the current DT1 iteration, unless you do a delay timer mod, which I have written about here before.

Neither is the T1/A3 Elektra.

Mark

cannonfodder wrote:Check out ebay, both machines have been around for quite a few years and both show up for a substantial discount now and then. You may have to put a little work into a used machine cleaning it up but if it saves a thousand dollars or more, I would sure do it.

The real prize, if you can find one, is an older pourover vibe Cimbali machine with a sight glass. You will have to tolerate the sound of a vibe pump, so if that is a deal killer for you then stop here. Otherwise, the advantages are that the machine makes espresso every bit as good as the newer model that I have, and it is hard to come up with a repair that a reasonably handy person couldn't do for himself, at home. There are no electronics, only electrical connections, so there's no expensive brain board or autofill circuit to repair or replace. The old Sirai pressurestat is robust, but if you prefer it can easily be replaced with a PID, as I have done. Other than having to replace the solenoid occasionally, there's nothing to replace except for group gaskets.

And, it is not that difficult to plumb in the drip tray and put a float valve in the pourover tank, turning this in to a pseudo plumbed in machine for very little additional cost, although finding the small necessary plastic part to plumb in the drip tray may require some searching.



ken

Thank you guys for your replies!
Chances of me stumbling on an old Cimbali or A3 here in Israel are rather nil. In fact, A3 is not officially sold here, wonder if even one has reached the holy land. Cimbali on the other hand, is well known here in many cafes and also Junior is sold (pourover S for $2200, plumbed DT for $2800) with 2 yr parts/labor warranty by the distributor.
Therefore, I can only get a new A3 with buying from say, espressCoffeeShop.com (for EUR 2100 == $3000 inc' shipping). This, w/o any warranty.

If A3 came with same 2yr parts/labor warranty I'd certainly BUY IT (looks do that to me)
But as it seems in my local reality, it boils down to either marrying the unfaithful exotic beauty or the reliable girl next door.

Logic tells me that Cimbali is the only reasonable choice. But logic is not the only guideline when buying such a machine, in the first place. Its something else...

I hope you are budgeting for a good grinder. I'd suggest you get an original Cimbali Max, which should be available to you. You can easily modify it to eliminate the autogrind function, and on balance it is a nicer grinder than the hybrid Max sold here, as it is much less noisy in operation plus the adjustment knob is nicer to use, although it won't fit under kitchen cabinets.

Perhaps you can get a package deal on it combined with the Junior. I'd suggest the DT1 rotary over the current pourover.

ken

ranweiss wrote: In fact, A3 is not officially sold here, wonder if even one has reached the holy land...

The following site hasn't change for a couple of years and as I understand it might be out of date. Anyway, they've imported Elektra machines to Israel and I saw the machine at cafes here in Israel. The T1 is advertised there with a price:

http://www.bristot.co.il/agalleries%20preview/c2450.php

I heard that these other guys are the master importers of Elektra here now, as they state in their site:

http://www.interpreq.co.il/category.asp ... 0&AdCat=30

but it might be only for the domestic line of Elektra. Elektra's domestic machines are sold here regularly and I am sure you can talk to an importer to get you an A3, maybe with some kind of warranty. I am sure that if you'll have an A3 that will need a fix in the future and there will be no importer for it then there are several places here that will fix it for you if you won't do it yourself. It is not difficult to get parts from abroad.

If you get a deal for the A3 here it would be nice to hear about it.

Nice to know I'm not alone... I've been to Interpreq. They rather sell Cimbali or the home Elektra products.
Btw, they sell an old Junior for around $1500:

It comes with 3 month warranty

I just recently bought a Macap M4 stepless, as a kick start. I have to wait for a decent machine to really try it out.

I've talked to a distributor and asked about Elektra's commercial machines here. I was told that the first company I've mentioned above is still in business here and supply Elektra's to cafes that serve Bristot coffee here. I understood that you can get any Elektra model from them with full service. This distributor I talked to is in business with them. He told me that if they tell you they only sell to cafes that serve their coffee then you can order from them through him even models they don't have in stock right now. If you wish to talk to him check out Amigo, they also sell La Cimbali:

http://coffeeman.co.il/

ranweiss wrote:Nice to know I'm not alone... I've been to Interpreq. They rather sell Cimbali or the home Elektra products.
Btw, they sell an old Junior for around $1500:


It comes with 3 month warranty

I just recently bought a Macap M4 stepless, as a kick start. I have to wait for a decent machine to really try it out.

This is an old plumbed in "D" model with a vibe pump. I believe it is overpriced, or would be overpriced in the US market, unless, maybe, it was very lightly used (and completely overhauled) and was supplied with a much longer warranty, say at least a year or two.

ken

Good to have your comment, Ken. I really prefer a volumetric pump, they sound better (to me) and seen to last longer.

Btw, I assume the A3 has a volumetric pump, since it is a plumb machine?

As for buying A3 from a Israeli distributor, it is around $3800. If I import myself, it turns to be around $3000. Maybe worth the try, taking a "calculated" risk.

zin1953 wrote:Both the T1 and A3 (single group Elektra "Sixties" machines) are equipped with ROTARY PUMPS; both need to be plumbed directly into the water supply. The T1 is a semi-automatic machine (you turn the pump on and off yourself), while the A3* is an automatic** -- meaning that it is volumetrically DOSED; you turn on the pump, but it shuts off automatically after a programmed (by you) amount of water is dispensed throughthe portafilter.

Cheers,
Jason

* Why it's not called an "A1" is anybody's guess . . .

** This is not to be confused with a "superautomatic" machine in which there is no portafilter per se and the machine does everything . . .

Jason, isn't it the other way around? The T1 is automatic (ie volumetric dosing) and the A3 is semi-automatic (ie you use a lever to turn it on and off)?