I didn't mean that thinner boilers could in ANY way change taste, I meant if you change the PID temp it will get down to that temp. faster.

The pictures showed that pink fluff insulation that looks like what I have in my attic, I thought they made it foil?

It would be a pretty simple experiment. Take 2 cylinders with different thicknesses pour boiling water in and see which cools faster.

I will . My dad is a Bio-Chemist so he has a nice lab and equipment. Knowing me I will prove myself wrong.

I must admit that when I had both the Brewtus III and Vibiemme 2-boiler PID machines sitting next to each other available for some testing, I actually at first wanted to bring the Vibiemme home. It was more expensive, but in the end what is the extra expense translated to each cup of coffee in relation to the sheer joy of handling such a nice machine every time again? The few extra dollars (or in my case euros) are forgotten already the first day, but the enjoyment of handling a nice machine and good drinks last.

However, the espresso shop demonstrating both machines to me simply could not solve the "problem" with the PID on the Vibiemme. When testing with the SCACE thermofilter we had a huge difference in temperature with the Vibiemme. We both at that moment did not realize the Vibiemme was showing real and actual temp in the boiler and not showing an offset temp like on the Brewtus. That made me hesitate and eventually take the Brewtus III back home, because overall the performance of both machines was the same. The looks of the Vibiemme were nicer and better finished and while pulling the espresso there was way less sound/noise (better insulation), but I was unsure what was going on with the PID so decided for the Brewtus.

Now that I have the Brewtus III at home I must admit that I am very happy with its performance. But, isn't it true that maybe we all will try to justify our decisions after we have taken one?

In the end, the whole process of selecting a good espresso machine is not so much a rational one at all. Emotions, what we like (looks) etc. They all play a way more important role.

In any way, the concept of 2-boiler, PID enabled espresso machines is perfect for the HB. More and easier control and more consistent shots without complicated procedures. Now even my wife can make me a perfect espresso.

Sjoerd Jan

So it seems there is no perfect machine, you have to pick what is important to you and stick with it. From this whole shopping deal I found:

Positives:

Brewtus III-R: Temp. Stability, Price
VBM DD: Good looks, Quality
Alex Duetto: Water hook-up options
Vivaldi: Automatic, very customizable (Pre-Infusion, etc.), Quality

Negatives:


Brewtus III-R: Quality
VBM DD: Temp. Stability of PID, Price
Alex Duetto: Seems very V1 with people complaining of leaks and other issues
Vivaldi: Electronics (Haven't heard of problems yet but $$$), Looks (very debatable), 1 degree Celsius vs Fahrenheit.

I'm not saying this is IT. This is just my take based on the research i've done.

Just remembered an email from Jim:

"I am a little surprised as the Spaz ia really not that great a machine. even the HB site owner stated this....".

Just curious where Dan stated this. I got an email from someone about Brewtus vs Vivaldi and wanted to give them as much info as possible to let them decide

Michal wrote:Brewtus III-R: Quality
VBM DD: Temp. Stability of PID, Price

Quality of components have been a problem with Expobar from what I heard, but I have the impression that this is improving from the fact that they are using better components (like e.g. the full metal OPV instead of the plastic screw in the old one).

The temperature stability of the Vibiemme 2-Boiler PID machine is just as perfect as it is with the Brewtus-III. So both will make the same quality coffee, but maybe the Vibiemme for a longer time (due maybe to the use of better parts). But then, even a Porsche can get a flat tire, so ...

Sjoerd Jan