luca wrote:I really don't understand the constant repetition of the "fact" that the vibiemmes have "high quality" components and the expobars do not ... particularly in the case of the dual-boiler versions, which now both seem to use temperature controllers from the same manufacturer.

Frankly, I suspect that it's as simple as people perceiving the VBM as a luxury good because of its higher price and the Expobar as shoddier because it is cheaper.

The insulation of the machine (not the boilers as such) is much better with the Vibiemme than the Brewtus III. I ran them side-by-side and the Vibiemme was very quiet (vibration pump version) and the Brewtus III made more noise. Then the thickness of the boiler walls was according to the sales person thinner on the Brewtus than on the Vibiemme. Performance-wise I did not notice a difference other than the noise level and outside finishing, so due to the huge price difference I opted for the Brewtus-III. I could not see how less noise and a little better outside finish could justify such a huge difference in price.

Sjoerd Jan

Michal wrote:Is the preset offset correct on the Brewt?

Yes it is quite accurate. I measured the temp with the SCACE thermofilter and it corresponds with what is on the display to within 1 degree. Also the temp stability was very well (also on the Vibiemme) giving very consistent shots.

I just brought the pressure down yesterday night adjusting the OPV as it was set to 11 bar and now is back to about 9.5 bar.

Sjoerd Jan

luca wrote:I really don't understand the constant repetition of the "fact" that the vibiemmes have "high quality" components and the expobars do not ... particularly in the case of the dual-boiler versions, which now both seem to use temperature controllers from the same manufacturer.

Frankly, I suspect that it's as simple as people perceiving the VBM as a luxury good because of its higher price and the Expobar as shoddier because it is cheaper.

Have you seen them side-by-side? It's easy to see the different choices in components and materials. The OPV is an obvious example:


Nylon versus brass plunger adjustment

Note: The OPV pictured on the right is actually from Chris' Coffee photo of the Quickmill Andreja Premium, but the Vibiemme uses the same one. Chris' Coffee makes a big point of the fact that others use a lower grade stainless steel. I don't think it will lead to the Expobars rusting away, but it is true that the higher grade stainless looks more silvery and shinier, if that matters to you.

sjjan wrote:I could not see how less noise and a little better outside finish could justify such a huge difference in price.

Look at Elektra's prices (at least in the US).

I heard from Todd at WLL that the OPV has been upgraded in Brewtus III. When I get mine I'll open (him/her) up and take some pictures. With thinner boilers, at least if uninsulated, they will respond to changes in temperature faster. I hope the III-R is quiet, than again I doubt Kony will .

Michal wrote:With thinner boilers, at least if uninsulated, they will respond to changes in temperature faster.

Hmm-m, when you can demonstrate this advantage, let me know. Otherwise it sounds like creative marketing-speak.

In the case of the Brewtus it's untrue because the boilers are insulated. If the boilers are thinner they retain less heat. Lets say you put a piece of tin foil in the oven and a thicker baking tray at 400 for an hour. Take them both out of the oven and you can almost instantly touch the foil but the tray will remain hot for a few minutes. We should test it at the CCC meeting on friday .

I took some pictures yesterday of the internals of the Brewtus III (see bottom part of http://www.home-barista.com/espre...afilter-t9530.html). The OPV has indeed been updated and is not of plastic anymore (the adjustment screw). I have never seen the inside of a Brewtus II, so I cannot compare.

Sjoerd Jan

Michal wrote:If the boilers are thinner they retain less heat.

I agree with your "armchair engineer" analysis, but remain unconvinced it makes any measurable difference and even less convinced anyone could taste the difference. That's the risk in thinking of espresso machines as an engineering problem to be solved rather than a means to an end, something I have been guilty of many times in the past.

Michal wrote:In the case of the Brewtus it's untrue because the boilers are insulated. If the boilers are thinner they retain less heat. Lets say you put a piece of tin foil in the oven and a thicker baking tray at 400 for an hour. Take them both out of the oven and you can almost instantly touch the foil but the tray will remain hot for a few minutes. We should test it at the CCC meeting on friday .

Think this through. Suppose you had a liter of water at 250F, enclosed in tin foil. Could you handle that? It's not the boiler, it's the contents.

Uninsulated boilers radiate heat. Although the type of metal and thickness may affect the rate of radiative transfer, this will be minor compared to insulating the boiler. The reason for using thicker metal in boilers is strength, not insulation.

for 99% of buyers - none of these machines will be the gating item
thus the choice is largely an emotional, personal and somewhat irrational one

wrapping this reality in technical detail doesn't change the fundamental truth

I didn't mean that thinner boilers could in ANY way change taste, I meant if you change the PID temp it will get down to that temp. faster.

The pictures showed that pink fluff insulation that looks like what I have in my attic, I thought they made it foil?

Michal wrote:I didn't mean that thinner boilers could in ANY way change taste, I meant if you change the PID temp it will get down to that temp. faster.

Understood. No matter how many times you say it, this is nothing more than an unproven assertion, it's highly unlikely that boiler thickness has any significant effect on temperature management, and your tin foil analogy is inappropriate.

malachi wrote:for 99% of buyers - none of these machines will be the gating item
thus the choice is largely an emotional, personal and somewhat irrational one

wrapping this reality in technical detail doesn't change the fundamental truth

Oops, reality check. (Spoilsport. )

It would be a pretty simple experiment. Take 2 cylinders with different thicknesses pour boiling water in and see which cools faster.

Go for it, dude. Good experimental evidence trumps armchair analysis any day.

I will . My dad is a Bio-Chemist so he has a nice lab and equipment. Knowing me I will prove myself wrong.

Never know till you try it. And here's the cool thing: your data will define the right answer, one way or another. Just be sure to get two cylinders of the same size, shape, and constituent metal for the experiment. Stainless steel and brass, e.g., conduct heat very differently.

I must admit that when I had both the Brewtus III and Vibiemme 2-boiler PID machines sitting next to each other available for some testing, I actually at first wanted to bring the Vibiemme home. It was more expensive, but in the end what is the extra expense translated to each cup of coffee in relation to the sheer joy of handling such a nice machine every time again? The few extra dollars (or in my case euros) are forgotten already the first day, but the enjoyment of handling a nice machine and good drinks last.

However, the espresso shop demonstrating both machines to me simply could not solve the "problem" with the PID on the Vibiemme. When testing with the SCACE thermofilter we had a huge difference in temperature with the Vibiemme. We both at that moment did not realize the Vibiemme was showing real and actual temp in the boiler and not showing an offset temp like on the Brewtus. That made me hesitate and eventually take the Brewtus III back home, because overall the performance of both machines was the same. The looks of the Vibiemme were nicer and better finished and while pulling the espresso there was way less sound/noise (better insulation), but I was unsure what was going on with the PID so decided for the Brewtus.

Now that I have the Brewtus III at home I must admit that I am very happy with its performance. But, isn't it true that maybe we all will try to justify our decisions after we have taken one?

In the end, the whole process of selecting a good espresso machine is not so much a rational one at all. Emotions, what we like (looks) etc. They all play a way more important role.

In any way, the concept of 2-boiler, PID enabled espresso machines is perfect for the HB. More and easier control and more consistent shots without complicated procedures. Now even my wife can make me a perfect espresso.

Sjoerd Jan

So it seems there is no perfect machine, you have to pick what is important to you and stick with it. From this whole shopping deal I found:

Positives:

Brewtus III-R: Temp. Stability, Price
VBM DD: Good looks, Quality
Alex Duetto: Water hook-up options
Vivaldi: Automatic, very customizable (Pre-Infusion, etc.), Quality

Negatives:


Brewtus III-R: Quality
VBM DD: Temp. Stability of PID, Price
Alex Duetto: Seems very V1 with people complaining of leaks and other issues
Vivaldi: Electronics (Haven't heard of problems yet but $$$), Looks (very debatable), 1 degree Celsius vs Fahrenheit.

I'm not saying this is IT. This is just my take based on the research i've done.

Just remembered an email from Jim:

"I am a little surprised as the Spaz ia really not that great a machine. even the HB site owner stated this....".

Just curious where Dan stated this. I got an email from someone about Brewtus vs Vivaldi and wanted to give them as much info as possible to let them decide

Michal wrote:Brewtus III-R: Quality
VBM DD: Temp. Stability of PID, Price

Quality of components have been a problem with Expobar from what I heard, but I have the impression that this is improving from the fact that they are using better components (like e.g. the full metal OPV instead of the plastic screw in the old one).

The temperature stability of the Vibiemme 2-Boiler PID machine is just as perfect as it is with the Brewtus-III. So both will make the same quality coffee, but maybe the Vibiemme for a longer time (due maybe to the use of better parts). But then, even a Porsche can get a flat tire, so ...

Sjoerd Jan