I have used both a single boiler Vibiemme and the Vivaldi II (I have owned the Vivaldi for almost 2 years). The Vibiemme is huge (very deep) and I don't like messing with the E61 flushing; that is just my personal preference.

Plumbed in and rotary pump are great; no filling or cleaning of tanks and quieter less obvious noise.

In terms of plumbing off the refrigerator, most refrigerator connections that I have seen are 1/4". You can plumb the Vivaldi with 1/4" line, but my understanding is that 3/8" is the preferable way to go (and what I used) so that you don't limit the pump.

As noted by others, you also want to use water that is not hard (if your water is soft great, otherwise you need to soften with either ion exchange or reverse osmosis) and to have a pressure gauge and regulator on the system. All of this can be done from a "T" off the refrigerator line if the line is large enough to handle everything.

I am sure that any of these 3 machines can make great coffee for you. I like the looks of the Vivaldi (as mentioned by others) and also really appreciate the double boiler, plumbed in rotary pump.

Good luck,
Mark

I was thinking about the Domobar Double Boiler not the HX. I'm glad to hear your liking your Vivaldi II i'm really thinking about it.

zin1953 wrote:Bernie, you're evil!

More than evil. I've placed an $1800.01 bid. One never knows. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much a La Marzocco AV2 would be worth to folks on this site? How much would you pay for a nice, used professional 2group to put in your kitchen?
Bernie

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much a La Marzocco AV2 would be worth to folks on this site?

$1800.02!

JohnB. wrote:I see little difference between boiling water in a kettle or on a stove & drawing it from your machine tap as long as you use the steam boiler regularly.

Presumably you mean, as long as you regularly draw off hot water. Well, to each his/her own.

RapidCoffee wrote:Presumably you mean, as long as you regularly draw off hot water. Well, to each his/her own.

Correct on both counts. I edited my post to make what I was saying a little clearer.

Michal wrote:So my question still remains. If you make 6-10 milk drinks a day, can plumb it in, and have the option of Alex Duetto, Vivaldi II, Domodouble Rotary, or Brewtus 3-R, which would you get?

<11' pole>
All these machines, as well as most prosumer E61 HX boxes, would suit your requirements very well. At some point it boils down to personal preferences. As others have said, you'll get better results by focussing on the grinder. The Mini, with its 58mm flat burrs, is the "Mini-mal" grinder I would recommend for your class of espresso machine.

The Spaziale has its strengths and weaknesses. The nonstandard 53mm grouphead is one of the weak points, especially for someone who already owns several 58mm PFs, baskets, and tampers. The boilers are uninsulated and not PID'd. OTOH the asymmetric boiler sizes (2.5L steam and 0.5L brew) make a lot of sense, the 2.5L steam boiler is the biggest of the bunch, and will froth like a locomotive. Along with the Brewtus, this is the only home DB with a long proven track record, and it's slightly less expensive than the VBM or Alex offerings. It's also the only machine that I have any significant personal experience with.

All machines have their positive and negative features. The Brewtus is the least expensive, but Expobars have a history of quality control problems. The VBM DD is apparently still having v1.0 issues. The Alex Duetto looks promising but it's also a relatively new entry. Others can jump in and tout their strong points.
</11' pole>

RapidCoffee wrote:The nonstandard 53mm grouphead is one of the weak points, especially for someone who already owns several 58mm PFs, baskets, and tampers. The boilers are uninsulated and not PID'd.

I too was worried about the 53mm basket. (I owned only 58mm prior). In actual fact, it turned out to be a "non-issue" since the 58mm PF, basket and tamper usually gets sold with the old machine. The only thing you might get stuck with is a naked PF, but I sold this at a good price as well when I sold my Silvia.

After using both the 58mm and 53mm, I must say the 53mm seems to work better. The taller puck seems to reduce side channeling. Also, the reduced diameter means the puck edges will see less thickness variation due to an unlevel tamper. The LaSpaziale philosophy was to start with a blank piece of paper and choose the best "aspect ratio" to produce the best taste. I think they chose well. Note the other new machine on the block (Dalla Corte Mini) also uses a smaller diameter.

I wouldn't insulate the boiler since the machine runs cool and the small amount of heat is used to heat the cups on top. Actually, some people are putting a towel on top to increase the heat to the cups.

As far as the PID goes, LaSpaziale uses proprietary temperature control logic on a controller board and LaSpaziale even does firmware upgrades. It's not an off the shelf $50 PID like the other machines.

Endo wrote:It's not an off the shelf $50 PID like the other machines.

Wow, please, do tell me where I can get a Gicar PID for $50, that's a helluva deal.

Sorry, $50 PID in a $100 Gicar project box.

I think I am going for the brewtus III-R. Todd is giving me a good deal and I bought Silvia and Rocky from them 2 weeks ago. Which grinder from WLL do you recommend? As part of the deal he is extending the parts warranty to 2 years. Apparently the brewtus 3 has an upgraded pressure stat over 2. Any pros/cons to Brewtus?

Michal wrote:Any pros/cons to Brewtus?

There's a great review of the Brewtus by Abe Carmeli on this site, a bunch of consumer reviews on CG, almost 18000 Google hits to "Expobar Brewtus", plus an active Brewtus users group. Is there a specific question that you can't find the answer to?

Endo wrote:Sorry, $50 PID in a $100 Gicar project box.

No, I am sorry, I was playing advocate. Glad you have good sense of humor.

RapidCoffee wrote: The VBM DD is apparently still having v1.0 issues.

Besides the steaming issue? (I am pretty sure 1-st/Stefano taken care of this for all customers of v1) I am unaware of any others besides this, please let me know of others.

Thanks.

Michal wrote:I think I am going for the brewtus III-R.....Any pros/cons to Brewtus?

WARNING: Overly simple car analogy too follow:

I view the Brewtus III like the Hyundai Genesis. On paper it looks great at a great price advantage. You get all the bells and whistles you'd ever dream of (trying to be a BMW 5 series), but the brand does not have a lot of prestige and has a history of mediocre quality. Only difference, you don't get a 10 year warranty.

Continuing on this silly car analogy: I see the LaSpaziale is like a Toyota Prius. A "game changer" in the espresso world. Very efficient. Reputation of high quality (not sure if it is well deserved or not). People either love or hate the looks but in the end, its looks will no doubt be copied as the popularity increases (note the new Bosch copy of the LaSpaziale).

http://www.solitaire.nl/s_070_des...aten/s_070_150.htm

The Alex Izzo and Vibiemme Domobar are like GM and Ford. Solid, beefy look. Unwilling to change and so always building on 1960 technology and ideas. Lot's of "out-of-place" chrome and way overpriced.

That's not to say the Brewtus or Izzo are bad....in fact, the Genesis and F-150 just won "2009 car of the year" honors (Prius, nowhere in site):

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/08/a...9_car_of_the_year/

OK....let me have it (I asked for it).

Endo wrote:WARNING: Overly simple car analogy too follow:

I view the Brewtus III like the Hyundai Genesis. On paper it looks great at a great price advantage. You get all the bells and whistles you'd ever dream of (trying to be a BMW 5 series), but the brand does not have a lot of prestige and has a history of mediocre quality.

Agreed.

Endo wrote:Continuing on this silly car analogy: I see the LaSpaziale is like a Toyota Prius.
OK....let me have it (I asked for it).

But not everyone can afford Prius, or justify the extra cost. Don't get me wrong I love the LaSpaziale, but not everyone has budget for it. As with the Prius it depends on how you drive, to determine if it makes sense. On could get a Honda Civic and get close to the same gas mileage and have less things go wrong (i.e. simplier to maintain than hybrid). Anyhow, maybe the HX machines are the Honda Civics in this analogy (i.e. Quickmill, VB, etc.), and hold up pretty well with all that super antiquated 1960's technology

Automotive analogies to espresso machines have never made sense to me. An espresso machine is more like an electric hot water kettle.

But drive on, brothers, drive on...

RapidCoffee wrote:Automotive analogies to espresso machines have never made sense to me. An espresso machine is more like an electric hot water kettle.

Guess you never had your radiator boil over on a hot day....

Not recently. But I did have to replace a wheel bearing on my S4.